How bad is corruption in China ? (Temprarily Closed)
- Thread starter nugroho
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We in the West have probably the similar levels of corruption its just that we have had many more generations to refine it to a fine art. I have personally witnessed a lot of corruption at local city council level that is never investigated by the press. The "exchange" of money or favours is well hidden.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
By the Way Our Chinese Readers if there are any will be blocked form reading that, If not this. As China Maintains Strict Control on What is and is not allowed too be read. And One Of there Pet peeves is anything regarding there own wealth.
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You must be naive to think that the poor Chinese are so helpless that the great fire wall are blocking them from the truth. While the courageous people in the West are all corruption free and living a clean life. NOPE, the Chinese people knows VERY well about their leader and their dealings. And yet... no revolutions is happening... shocking huh?
You do know the term Revolving door politic is invented for US politics right? Just like how Henry Paulson the CEO of Goldman, who later became United States Secretary of the Treasury, and it was under him, hundreds of billions was distributed to "too big to fail" banks.
And also interestingly, when he became Treasury Secretary, he was required to sell off his $600 million dollar of stocks.. and yes, he paid very little tax on it. I'm going to bet you don't know this.
And you really think the same thing is NOT going on in US in far larger scale? 90% over all all congress man are millionares.
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bladerunner
Banned Idiot
Small fry aren't worth worrying about, however theres no lack of dirt dug up by the British/western press in general regarding prominent people and their dealings, eg Conrad Black of Hollinger Int. or Mark Thatcher , the son of Ex British PM Margaret and his questionable business dealings.
bladerunner
Banned Idiot
The issue is not the number of millionaires in congress , blah blah , but disclosure.
I was talking to a business realtor in NZ who said it was very frustrating dealing with potential chinese businessmen interestered in purchasing businessess over a certain monetary value because most failed the litmus test on character,and proving how they acquired the funds.
You hit the nail right on the head, for you it not about corruption anymore, for you it is about disclosure. So what does it matter if the lobbyist industry is growing by double digit year on year at the US government, but hey!!! they disclose it. So it is all ok.
What does it matter that it takes 2+ million dollar to get elected to congress, 10+ million to became senator 1+ billion to became president. Which vast majority of the the money come from corporation and special interests. Who's goal often is harmful to the public... but hey according to you, they disclose it, and yes it is all legal. So I guess that makes it all ok right?
I guess the lesson the Chinese should learn from all this is, it is ok to be corrupt, as long as you legalized it.
Is that what you trying to say here?
I don't know who posted this, but I like to respond
You do know you should be ashamed by this statistic right? US government spends 4.1% of GDP on military, vs 1.9% the Chinese spend on their military. And do you even know what this "internal security" is all about? Let me tell you what is internal security here in US, all the police departments, FBI, DHS, NSA, prison industry etc... Trust me, if you want to add them up, they will be far larger than Chinese internal security.
And lastly let's judge the suppression of the nation's own people by the number of people locked up. USA have the #1 prison population on earth, by both percentage (0.7 of adult population) and absolute number (2.2 million). Vast majority of those in jail are there for none-violent crimes. Want take a guess who benefit from this? It has been estimated for everyone person locked up in jail the government pays the jail 40,000-80,000 per year, which all come out of the pocket of tax payer like you and me. There are prison organization which have been privatized and trading on the stock market, and their stock performance is based the number of people it locks up.... I don't know about you, I see some major violation of human right and conflict of interest here.
It seems you really know nothing about economics. What did the bail of bank achieve? And do you really think it is OVER? All they did was pushing back the day of reckoning. They money that they took to bail out the banks... were the money BORROWED from the Fed and China. And what do you think is going to happen? You think the debt will disappear? They are borrowing from our future generation to pay for the present. As for fight now debt is over 100% of GDP, and it is increasing by 10-25% per year.
While at the same time, bailing the bank out is a totally violation of free market in the first place. The bank went into this situation in the first because they recklessly gambling with the housing market, the derivative market, the commodity market. And in the end they were NOT punished for their failure, instead the government reward them with bailout. And in the end, there is no regulation of their behavior, they are continue to play with the derivative market which Warren Buff called them financial weapons of mass destruction, they are still coming up with ever more exotic financial schemes all in the name of short term profit. And now they have organized into a very powerful force, they have hired lobbyists, lawyers directly targeting the government to fight for their interest. I don't know what do you call this, to me this is about freaking corrupt as it gets in the history of human race.
You do know you should be ashamed by this statistic right? US government spends 4.1% of GDP on military, vs 1.9% the Chinese spend on their military. And do you even know what this "internal security" is all about? Let me tell you what is internal security here in US, all the police departments, FBI, DHS, NSA, prison industry etc... Trust me, if you want to add them up, they will be far larger than Chinese internal security.
And lastly let's judge the suppression of the nation's own people by the number of people locked up. USA have the #1 prison population on earth, by both percentage (0.7 of adult population) and absolute number (2.2 million). Vast majority of those in jail are there for none-violent crimes. Want take a guess who benefit from this? It has been estimated for everyone person locked up in jail the government pays the jail 40,000-80,000 per year, which all come out of the pocket of tax payer like you and me. There are prison organization which have been privatized and trading on the stock market, and their stock performance is based the number of people it locks up.... I don't know about you, I see some major violation of human right and conflict of interest here.
It seems you really know nothing about economics. What did the bail of bank achieve? And do you really think it is OVER? All they did was pushing back the day of reckoning. They money that they took to bail out the banks... were the money BORROWED from the Fed and China. And what do you think is going to happen? You think the debt will disappear? They are borrowing from our future generation to pay for the present. As for fight now debt is over 100% of GDP, and it is increasing by 10-25% per year.
While at the same time, bailing the bank out is a totally violation of free market in the first place. The bank went into this situation in the first because they recklessly gambling with the housing market, the derivative market, the commodity market. And in the end they were NOT punished for their failure, instead the government reward them with bailout. And in the end, there is no regulation of their behavior, they are continue to play with the derivative market which Warren Buff called them financial weapons of mass destruction, they are still coming up with ever more exotic financial schemes all in the name of short term profit. And now they have organized into a very powerful force, they have hired lobbyists, lawyers directly targeting the government to fight for their interest. I don't know what do you call this, to me this is about freaking corrupt as it gets in the history of human race.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
I had made a lengthy post, but the Interwebs ate it, and I am in no mood to duplicate that much work, so here is the gist of what I wanted to say.
I think it is important to differentiate between 'graft' and 'corruption'.
The western democratic free press model claims to be good at cutting down graft, where officials pocket public money. I say 'claim' because India ticks all the right boxes but has graft far worse than China.
Corruption, especially political corruption, should be best defined as officials abusing their office and position for personal gain at the expense of the national/public good.
Now, China has a big problem with graft, whereby officials of all levels skim money off the top to line their own pockets. However, on the whole, the unwritten rule seems to be that it's tolerate for officials to skim a little so long as it isn't excessive and also so long as the project does not suffer because of it. That is because if corners are cut and something does wrong, pretty much everyone involved in the project are done for. The CCP disciplinary department will take a long hard look at all their careers and settle all their misdeeds, past and present. The Chinese have a saying for that, 'lao zhang xin zhang yi qi suan'.
While big screw ups still happen in China, they are not as common as you would expect given how the pervasive the graft is in the country, and every time there has been a big incident, top officials not only got the sack, but often went to prison and had their ill-gotten fortunes seized. Take the high speed rail crash as an example in point.
While inefficient, this linkage between performance and outcomes to personal consequence helps to make sure Chinese officials at least keep the big picture in mind most of the time, and there can be no question of personal interest standing in the way of national interest. To do so would almost certainly attract the disapproving notice of the powers that be. That is, incidentally, the main reasons why most Chinese career politicians have perfected the art of not standing out, because to stand out is to invite closer scrutiny and probably disgrace.
Compare that to western democracies which have in effect legalized political corruption and contrast is quite stark.
Horse-trading is the natural order of things, and politicians will laugh in your face if you were the PM or President and went to them and demanded they make personal political sacrifices for no reward in return simply because it would be good for the country.
It is also a rare thing indeed for anyone high-up to be held responsible even for obvious and catastrophic cock-ups, because everything is above board and everyone high-up is an expert at ass covering, or have professional ass-covers to make sure they cannot be held liable.
That is, of course a gross simplification, and there are many many other factors to consider and there are probable hidden costs and benefits to both systems, and one could devote an entire PhD Thesis to the subject and still only barely scratch the surface.
I had covered some of that, but as I said, the Interwebs ate it, but if you want to consider the topic more fully, I suggestion you also consider the following points:
- Legalizing political corruption actually share many of the pros and cons arguments as legalizing soft drugs like cannabis. Such as making it more transparent so you can better measure and account for it and control it, you can tax it, and forcing it underground makes it easier to lead to bigger related problems etc.
- Since international relations is based largely on horse trading, having leaders who are expects at it could get the country better deals in international negotiations.
- Systematic graft makes Chinese officials potential susceptible to foreign blackmail or manipulation.
- Cutting down on graft would be massively popular and western 'pass the buck' style ass-covering techniques could deflect public anger. Almost everyone I know who isn't a banker is massively peeved at the bail-out and especially at the fact that no-one seemed to have been held accountable or paid for this colossal cock-up, but their anger can't easily find a deserving target, so there is nothing to focus all that public rage, hence no mass demonstrations.
- The Chinese political system might be near undecipherable for outsiders, but insiders have surprising good information, and since China's leaders are all career bureaucrats, they will have a reputation within the party despite their best efforts, and as such, it is extremely unlikely that anyone too bad will get into a position of true power and authority because all the others will be able to see these people for what they are, and will not allow them to be placed in high office. Westerns like to point to the Bo Xi Lai scandal as an example of example of bad people in high places in China, or of high officials in China taking advantage of a situation to launch a purge etc. But I see it quite differently, as an example of how you can be taken down no matter how high you climb in China if you turn out to be a bad apple. Bo hid his true colors well for most of his life and career, but once he slipped, he was found out and taken down.
There were more points, but I forget.
The point is, the western system is not nearly as flawless as the west would like to believe, and China isn't as bad as many in China fears. As with most things in life, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and there is no perfect solution to this problem.
Both China and the west can benefit massively if they learned from each other and tried to bring in aspects of the other's system to help address some of the problems and shortcomings of their own system. The critical difference seems to be that while China never denies that it has a problem and is, in theory at least, always looking for ways to tackle it's graft problem and improve upon it's system, the west seems to think their system is perfection incarnate, and would not dream of adopting anything from China.
In the long run, guess who my money is on to come up with the superior solution?
That, incidentally, also applies to political reform, but that is another story.
I think it is important to differentiate between 'graft' and 'corruption'.
The western democratic free press model claims to be good at cutting down graft, where officials pocket public money. I say 'claim' because India ticks all the right boxes but has graft far worse than China.
Corruption, especially political corruption, should be best defined as officials abusing their office and position for personal gain at the expense of the national/public good.
Now, China has a big problem with graft, whereby officials of all levels skim money off the top to line their own pockets. However, on the whole, the unwritten rule seems to be that it's tolerate for officials to skim a little so long as it isn't excessive and also so long as the project does not suffer because of it. That is because if corners are cut and something does wrong, pretty much everyone involved in the project are done for. The CCP disciplinary department will take a long hard look at all their careers and settle all their misdeeds, past and present. The Chinese have a saying for that, 'lao zhang xin zhang yi qi suan'.
While big screw ups still happen in China, they are not as common as you would expect given how the pervasive the graft is in the country, and every time there has been a big incident, top officials not only got the sack, but often went to prison and had their ill-gotten fortunes seized. Take the high speed rail crash as an example in point.
While inefficient, this linkage between performance and outcomes to personal consequence helps to make sure Chinese officials at least keep the big picture in mind most of the time, and there can be no question of personal interest standing in the way of national interest. To do so would almost certainly attract the disapproving notice of the powers that be. That is, incidentally, the main reasons why most Chinese career politicians have perfected the art of not standing out, because to stand out is to invite closer scrutiny and probably disgrace.
Compare that to western democracies which have in effect legalized political corruption and contrast is quite stark.
Horse-trading is the natural order of things, and politicians will laugh in your face if you were the PM or President and went to them and demanded they make personal political sacrifices for no reward in return simply because it would be good for the country.
It is also a rare thing indeed for anyone high-up to be held responsible even for obvious and catastrophic cock-ups, because everything is above board and everyone high-up is an expert at ass covering, or have professional ass-covers to make sure they cannot be held liable.
That is, of course a gross simplification, and there are many many other factors to consider and there are probable hidden costs and benefits to both systems, and one could devote an entire PhD Thesis to the subject and still only barely scratch the surface.
I had covered some of that, but as I said, the Interwebs ate it, but if you want to consider the topic more fully, I suggestion you also consider the following points:
- Legalizing political corruption actually share many of the pros and cons arguments as legalizing soft drugs like cannabis. Such as making it more transparent so you can better measure and account for it and control it, you can tax it, and forcing it underground makes it easier to lead to bigger related problems etc.
- Since international relations is based largely on horse trading, having leaders who are expects at it could get the country better deals in international negotiations.
- Systematic graft makes Chinese officials potential susceptible to foreign blackmail or manipulation.
- Cutting down on graft would be massively popular and western 'pass the buck' style ass-covering techniques could deflect public anger. Almost everyone I know who isn't a banker is massively peeved at the bail-out and especially at the fact that no-one seemed to have been held accountable or paid for this colossal cock-up, but their anger can't easily find a deserving target, so there is nothing to focus all that public rage, hence no mass demonstrations.
- The Chinese political system might be near undecipherable for outsiders, but insiders have surprising good information, and since China's leaders are all career bureaucrats, they will have a reputation within the party despite their best efforts, and as such, it is extremely unlikely that anyone too bad will get into a position of true power and authority because all the others will be able to see these people for what they are, and will not allow them to be placed in high office. Westerns like to point to the Bo Xi Lai scandal as an example of example of bad people in high places in China, or of high officials in China taking advantage of a situation to launch a purge etc. But I see it quite differently, as an example of how you can be taken down no matter how high you climb in China if you turn out to be a bad apple. Bo hid his true colors well for most of his life and career, but once he slipped, he was found out and taken down.
There were more points, but I forget.
The point is, the western system is not nearly as flawless as the west would like to believe, and China isn't as bad as many in China fears. As with most things in life, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and there is no perfect solution to this problem.
Both China and the west can benefit massively if they learned from each other and tried to bring in aspects of the other's system to help address some of the problems and shortcomings of their own system. The critical difference seems to be that while China never denies that it has a problem and is, in theory at least, always looking for ways to tackle it's graft problem and improve upon it's system, the west seems to think their system is perfection incarnate, and would not dream of adopting anything from China.
In the long run, guess who my money is on to come up with the superior solution?
That, incidentally, also applies to political reform, but that is another story.
bladerunner
Banned Idiot
- Status