Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

Bltizo said:

Then if the protesters make it clear that their desire to choose their own CE will prevent the CE from having any powers similar to that of an independent state, seek independence, or seek to subvert the central government on issues in China, then there may be room for compromise.

But right now there's none of that moderation, only push.

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As it is often quoted, the devil are in the details. The way politics will work for HK vis a vis with Beijing in the background is entirely dependent on the role of each of the key players i.e. Chief executive; Legco.; and Beijing. We know defence and foreign affairs are outside the control of the HK administration and so we can safely rule it out. Honestly, I do not understand the role of the CE in HK politics. It appears to me to be more than ceremonial but beyond that how much direct influence does the role have on daily administration. Is it policy or executive? If the CE does intend to subvert central authorities can it and in what way? What is Beijing's comfort zone of a CE? Is it total submission or merely trust that the person will toe the line and not be a wild card? There are just too many variables to even speculate.

I suppose the hope that nothing turns violent is the one thing both occupy and the authorities have in common atm.

Brumby said:

As it is often quoted, the devil are in the details. The way politics will work for HK vis a vis with Beijing in the background is entirely dependent on the role of each of the key players i.e. Chief executive; Legco.; and Beijing. We know defence and foreign affairs are outside the control of the HK administration and so we can safely rule it out. Honestly, I do not understand the role of the CE in HK politics. It appears to me to be more than ceremonial but beyond that how much direct influence does the role have on daily administration. Is it policy or executive? If the CE does intend to subvert central authorities can it and in what way? What is Beijing's comfort zone of a CE? Is it total submission or merely trust that the person will toe the line and not be a wild card? There are just too many variables to even speculate.

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The first step is the ability for the protesters to be more moderate, but right now we lack even that.

Details can be sorted once an ability to negotiate is there. But the protests have no leaders, or are arrested (I suspect they are in some type of talks right now), but even if the leaders were still out here, do we think they would have the foresight to be moderate in their demands? What even are their demands apart from "democracy now, now, now, now"

Basically the problem is right now, it is HK vs China. It needs to be HK demonstrating it is a part of China, willing to work with the central government to work out a compromise, now that they've made enough noise to get their attention.
The ball is occupying Occupy's court (hohoho, punny)

I think the goal is independence. It's just like Taiwan. When the West agreed to recognize the one-China policy in order to get China on their side in the Cold War, that left Taiwan out in the cold. Some people in the US against relations with China told Taiwan to adopt democracy because that would be the only way Taiwan could be protected where democracies would have to defend Taiwan. That was a genius move. Hong Kong wants democracy in order to declare independence. If they're looking to establish their own identity, independence is an important part of that. Once they have democracy, they know the West will have to protect an independence vote.

China should do nothing. Let the protestors bore themselves to death or let them "burn" Hong Kong to the ground by their own actions. Halting business is only going to hurt Hong Kong. The reason why Hong Kong didn't change China like what was advertised before the handover was because Beijing was declaring their financial center to Shanghai. Beijing didn't listen to those in the West that called Hong Kong as China's financial center. If Hong Kong were China's financial center, these protestors would have leverage. Let's also remember that some people want China to crackdown hard so they can use that in their anti-China agenda. These protestors are cannon fodder for them in their personal crusade against China.

Engineer said:

Ah, the good old "we are against Chinese government, not the people" excuse. As soon as someone raise an opinion favoring China, contempt is directed at that person as well.

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I'm sorry that's how you had come to see or associate us.
In fact, it's pretty sad that even when we say that's what we're targeted against, you think it's an excuse, or think we mean something else. After all, if you can't be opened to accepting that's what people thinks when they are literally expressing their thoughts genuinely, I feel that's a bit tragic.
I do wonder if you guys had ever really spent time in culture or with the HK communities and understand the culture and people.

Furthermore, favoring China isn't a problem. It's the lack of understanding or desire to understand our side of the story, or believing what you think is what's true for us then dismissing our thoughts. In other words, can't accept the stories of the primary actors and rather use your thoughts of being outside to judge and determine what they are.

Next, if favoring China means the expense of our welfare, then you can't be surprised that we have to defend ourselves.

Honestly, that's a lot of bias you have a lot towards us.

To be fair, if enough safeguards can be put in place to assure China that a fully democratic HK government and CE won't even think about independence, that may be a way to entice Taiwan to eventually return to the fold.

There are definitely some voices out there who would love to see another TAM, but the small difference here is that... well, riot police exist in China now ._.

Re: Chinese Daily Photos 2014!

PanAsian said:

Quit fanning the flames Blackstone.

This Occupy Central protest can be handled like the Occupy Wall Street protest. The government can cordon off the protesters, wait til they run out of steam, then clear out the hanger-ons. During this time though the government should really repeatedly reach out to the public to explain the government's vision and why things are the way they are and how these protests are counterproductive. This is a fight for hearts and minds so it needs to be addressed with vision and reason.

Given media bias against China, both in HK and in most English media, I have not been able to find a single article in English covering the HK government news conferences since this protest broke out. There has however been plenty of perverting the facts on the core issues of these protests as China taking away HK democracy when in fact China is granting HK more democracy, it's just that these protesters want all or nothing.

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The people no longer trusts the government. They can explain their viewpoints but it's pointless at this stage, because we can all tell they don't care about us. They had neglected the public for so long, you know.

And thanks for telling him to stop flamebaiting. I ignored what he said because I've got no time for those types of opinions that doesn't understand what's happening right now.

The HK gov't sources, I can tell you, is unreliable. CY's been talking to CNN and saying lies about what's happening there.

And again, HK doesn't trust Beijing anymore, which is why HK wants things our way now. If Beijing had given someone who actually addressed HK's issues, I think NPC's announcements may not receive this magnitude of backlash.

airsuperiority said:

I'm sorry that's how you had come to see or associate us.
In fact, it's pretty sad that even when we say that's what we're targeted against, you think it's an excuse, or think we mean something else. After all, if you can't be opened to accepting that's what people thinks when they are literally expressing their thoughts genuinely, I feel that's a bit tragic.
I do wonder if you guys had ever really spent time in culture or with the HK communities and understand the culture and people.

Furthermore, favoring China isn't a problem. It's the lack of understanding or desire to understand our side of the story, or believing what you think is what's true for us then dismissing our thoughts. In other words, can't accept the stories of the primary actors and rather use your thoughts of being outside to judge and determine what they are.

Next, if favoring China means the expense of our welfare, then you can't be surprised that we have to defend ourselves.

Honestly, that's a lot of bias you have a lot towards us.

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IMO, HK's culture and people, no matter how unique or positive or whatever, doesn't necessarily change the truth in Engineer's post.

The "we're against the government not the people" phrase has been used so much, and have had it been used against us and called wumao or whatever, when we write posts on public forums (especially western ones) which are supportive or not condemning every single decision the PRC has ever made.

Maybe the protesters do think they're only against the government and not the people. But their current way of challenging the government is not one which is creating sympathy among the crowd like many SDF posters and other Chinese of similar stance, and certainly not among the central government either.
Maybe their current way of acting is justified in context of whatever greivances they've felt over the last few years, but they also need to realize democracy and hints of independence are very sensitive topics to China whether it is the people or the government.

Re: Chinese Daily Photos 2014!

airsuperiority said:

The people no longer trusts the government. They can explain their viewpoints but it's pointless at this stage, because we can all tell they don't care about us. They had neglected the public for so long, you know.

And thanks for telling him to stop flamebaiting. I ignored what he said because I've got no time for those types of opinions that doesn't understand what's happening right now.

The HK gov't sources, I can tell you, is unreliable. CY's been talking to CNN and saying lies about what's happening there.

And again, HK doesn't trust Beijing anymore, which is why HK wants things our way now. If Beijing had given someone who actually addressed HK's issues, I think NPC's announcements may not receive this magnitude of backlash.

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Like I've said, if you guys really want something substantial, the time for moderation is now. Swallow your pride and think about the reality of how you look to beijing. Then tailor your protest image to your objectives.