Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

ancestral said:

I just read this article on the New York Times and am now frustrated by the depressing comments in it. It looks like the majority of the NYT readers are clueless about China, not to mention the situation in Hong Kong. The cold war stereotype and condescending attitude about the superiority of their morality are blinding all reasons. And to think this is touted as the best news publication in the world read by the intellectuals.

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It all about how you frame the discussion. If the discussion is framed that you're arguing about "Love, Freedom, and Liberty", then good luck providing the counter argument. Good luck arguing against the ideal of "democracy". Good luck arguing against the ideal of "Universal Sufferage".

But of cause, as Henry Kissinger rightly pointed out. Idealism needs to be tempered with a health dose of Realism. The issue in Hong Kong is a lot more complex than the universal ideals of "Love, Freedom, and Liberty". There is a multitude of economic, social and historical layer underneath. And that's what these high level ideals type of discussion are so good at shuting down. What if you're not discussing the merits of "democracy", but instead about "competitive electoral politics" in the regional context? That would be a completely different discussion.

What I'm getting at is that Hong Konger feels that they have a grievance that it's not being addressed. It's a complex grievance that involves economic, social and historical factors. This grievance is entirely indigenous and requires no outside initiation. If what you're getting at is that if there's no outside involvment then there wouldn't even be protests, and these grievances are some how created by outside forces to destablise China, then you're delusional. And more importantly, you are not interested in addressing these grievances and solving the problem.

AssassinsMace said:

I love the "blame Obama card" card. You mean just like Beijing is hiring thugs and not the counter protests are legitimately coming from other Hong Kongers? Or how about falsely accused perverts are being hired by Beijing too molest women in the crowd?

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Two wongs don't make a right. Doesn't lessen the fact that you're pulling out the "CIA Card". Notice I never said that the protestors accusations are not equally idiotic.

Blackstone said:

What legitimate grievances???? HKSAR and Beijing are observing the terms of governance, as enumerated in Basic Law, so pray tell what civil liberties you believe HK/Beijing have abridged?

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The fact that you're think Hong Konger's grievances are illegitimate says a lot. I hope there are saner minds in the CCP that want to effectively tackle the problem. Otherwise the obvious response to an precieved illegitimate grievance will only create more grievances.

Doombreed said:

It all about how you frame the discussion. If the discussion is framed that you're arguing about "Love, Freedom, and Liberty", then good luck providing the counter argument. Good luck arguing against the ideal of "democracy". Good luck arguing against the ideal of "Universal Sufferage".

But of cause, as Henry Kissinger rightly pointed out. Idealism needs to be tempered with a health dose of Realism. The issue in Hong Kong is a lot more complex than the universal ideals of "Love, Freedom, and Liberty". There is a multitude of economic, social and historical layer underneath. And that's what these high level ideals type of discussion are so good at shuting down. What if you're not discussing the merits of "democracy", but instead about "competitive electoral politics" in the regional context? That would be a completely different discussion.

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Yeah just because they say they believe in freedom and democracy and a lightning bolt from the heaven doesn't strike them down or their tongue doesn't explode into flames, it must mean they're telling the truth? Ever hear of lying? How about Arab Spring revolutionaries begged to the US for help in the name of freedom and democracy, only to have more oppressive governments take place afterwards. But according to you they must be telling the truth.

Doombreed said:

Two wongs don't make a right. Doesn't lessen the fact that you're pulling out the "CIA Card". Notice I never said that the protestors accusations are not equally idiotic.

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Where did I pull out the CIA card? If you were more informed, the US doesn't need the CIA to do any of this. Have you read about how the State Department used NGOs in attempt to start a revolution by the people in Cuba?

Doombreed said:

The fact that you're think Hong Konger's grievances are illegitimate says a lot. I hope there are saner minds in the CCP that want to effectively tackle the problem. Otherwise the obvious response to an precieved illegitimate grievance will only create more grievances.

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You said HKers had "legitimate grievances," and I ask you again to detail them. To be legitimate, the "grievances" must be repugnant to Basic Law, and be serious enough to warrant mass demonstrations and protest. My opinion is Beijing has basically observed terms in the Basic Law, so unless you could provide clear evidence to the contrary, I stand on my believes. Can you provide said evidence...?

Doombreed said:

What I'm getting at is that Hong Konger feels that they have a grievance that it's not being addressed. It's a complex grievance that involves economic, social and historical factors. This grievance is entirely indigenous and requires no outside initiation. If what you're getting at is that if there's no outside involvment then there wouldn't even be protests, and these grievances are some how created by outside forces to destablise China, then you're delusional. And more importantly, you are not interested in addressing these grievances and solving the problem.

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Just because there may be legitimate grievance, doesn't mean foreign parties won't and haven't tried to manipulate the situation for their own geopolitical gain. The NED link earlier in this thread clearly shows American government money have been spent to train HK student activists. That's just the public record, we don't know how much clandestine money there are.
And as other post has brought up much earlier in this thread, there are more than enough pro-Democracy block votes in the Legco to block the proposed electoral reform in its current form. Legislators from both sides can and should sit down to work out an compromise solution. Instead, the opposition decided to thrust their child soldiers into the street, block public road and disrupt people's lives. The only conclusion is that the aim is not for a solution but simply to destabilize HK and China in general.

PanAsian said:

Here is the South China Morning Post recap of the day:

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At this juncture I find the SCMP to be by far the least biased among English language media coverage, also they actually try to provide a complete background and details on what's going on if you dig around their coverage of Occupy Central.

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It is a little absurd I am replying to my own post but I have to elaborate that even though I endorsed SCMP being the least biased among English language media coverage this does not mean they are not biased, just not ridiculously so, and if you dig around their coverage you can at least find some facts to piece together yourself. For the record they slant against China and the HK authorities in general, and their editors' and/or reporters' objectivity appears to vary greatly from one report to the next.

PanAsian said:

Don't know if anyone has posted this already: Singapore Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong's fair and sensible overview in English of the political aspect of the situation in Hong Kong (dated Oct 3rd '14).
[video=youtube_share;HnJwu8pOeuA]http://youtu.be/HnJwu8pOeuA[/video]

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A good point of view from the Singaporean PM. I hope this have some persuasion power on the moderate protester, as there were many comparison between HK and Singapore since, last year by HK citizen. Even if you fail universal suffrage, why not move forward and get out of status quo. In my opinion, no one is telling you to stop working toward universal suffrage if you passed. China never really feel that they 'won' if you let the new policy pass. The people should not feel defeated. In China's eye, that is just a stage in working toward universal suffrage. Like I said before. 得寸进尺 "obtained an inch, aim for a feet"