H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

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ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Nx4eu said:
Ah I see so they must instead disassemble the aircraft and ship the parts by land to a remote airbase then like the Americans.
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They most probably won't have to, either.

Nx4eu said:
I'm still quite disappointed in the lack thereof of an attempt at opsec and secrecy for their approach towards the J-36 and the J-XDS. This has already eroded my confidence towards how much they will attempt to veil the H-20 from foreign eyes. I can see from an outsider perspective that those test flights almost appear to be a flashy show of strength and not an earnest attempt was made to conceal the aircraft. I think I've just been trying to self convince myself that they will keep the H-20 more secret due to it's strategic nature of importance. But as you can see doubts are already being cast.
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In geopolitics, one of the most common tactics for sending message of deterrence that are meant for the opposing sides/rivals/enemies would be the careful and calculated unveiling of new strategic military projects and platforms. Doing so essentially evokes the messages of "Yes, we are working on the same thing you have. You think we won't be able to do the same to you like what you have in mind for us?" and "Did you see what we have here? So if you are going to hatch any funny ideas, better think again."

The H-20 is one good medium for such purposes, especially considering not just the military, but also the geopolitical implications of such platforms can bring to the table, in view of the present Sino-US Confrontation/Cold War 2.0.
 
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tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
I actually think the best use of a large stealth plane like the H-20 is to be a stealth all purpose platform. A stealth Awacs for example, then a stealth tanker, a stealth electronic warfare aircraft. Essentially what the y-9 is.

These large special aircrafts are very useful but too vulnerable to being shot down by long range aa. So, the next best way to make them survivable is to make them a stealth platform.

Sure the bomber aspect will be there but I don't think that will be the primary aspect that makes such an expensive platform worth it.

It could even be an awacs that shoots ultra long range aa missiles. Even longer range and bigger than whatever j-36 can shoot. There are many possibilities.
 
zyklon

zyklon

Junior Member
Registered Member
tamsen_ikard said:
I actually think the best use of a large stealth plane like the H-20 is to be a stealth all purpose platform. A stealth Awacs for example, then a stealth tanker, a stealth electronic warfare aircraft. Essentially what the y-9 is.
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How would a "stealth AWACS" stay stealthy while operating its relatively large radar arrays?
 
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ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
tamsen_ikard said:
I actually think the best use of a large stealth plane like the H-20 is to be a stealth all purpose platform. A stealth Awacs for example, then a stealth tanker, a stealth electronic warfare aircraft. Essentially what the y-9 is.

These large special aircrafts are very useful but too vulnerable to being shot down by long range aa. So, the next best way to make them survivable is to make them a stealth platform.

Sure the bomber aspect will be there but I don't think that will be the primary aspect that makes such an expensive platform worth it.

It could even be an awacs that shoots ultra long range aa missiles. Even longer range and bigger than whatever j-36 can shoot. There are many possibilities.
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Jack of all trades, master of none.

tamsen_ikard said:
I thought AESA radars keep changing their frequency, amplitude and other aspects to make detection difficult. Otherwise even stealth fighters will be detected if they turn on their radar.
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Because having a "stealthy AEW&C aircraft" is like trying to paint oneself completely black while holding a large flashlight at night, which emits a massive beam of light at a general direction. The enemy likely won't know where you are by looking for you yourself, but they certainly will know where you are by just looking at the source of light (i.e. your flashlight).

5th-gen and 6th-gen stealth fighters can be equipped with AESA radars and still maintain stealth, primarily because of:
1. Usage of low-probability-of-intercept (LPI) radars with directional beamforming capabilities;
2. Strict management of onboard radar usage (only switching on radar intermittently unless absolutely required);
3. Reliance on passive (IRST) and offboard (note point #4) methods for detection; and
4. Data-linking with other allied assets (AEW&C aircrafts, manned fighters, high-tier U(C)AVs, surface radar assets, satellites etc) in meshed battlefield networks for situational awareness and operational planning/execution.

It would be akin to a person who:
1. Paints himself/herself completely black;
2. Holds a small flashlight that emits a narrow beam of light that points at only one specific direction at any one time;
3. Only turns on the flashlight when needed, and only for short durations;
4. Is equipped with night vision goggles; and
5. Have a phone to communicate with his/her team members spread across a wider area.

Can AEW&C aircrafts do the same as stealth fighters? Of course not, because why would they be called as AEW&C aircrafts if they lose their fundamental functionalities which define their roles and responsibilities in the system?

TL; DR - The contradiction between the nature and roles of stealth fighters and dedicated AEW&C aircrafts is so vast, such concepts of "stealthy AEW&C aircraft" is an outright no-go.
 
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M

MC530

New Member
Registered Member
ACuriousPLAFan said:
Jack of all trades, master of none.



Because having a "stealthy AEW&C aircraft" is like trying to paint oneself completely black while holding a large flashlight at night, which emits a massive beam of light at a general direction. The enemy likely won't know where you are by looking for you yourself, but they certainly will know where you are by just looking at the source of light (i.e. your flashlight).

5th-gen and 6th-gen stealth fighters can be equipped with AESA radars and still maintain stealth, primarily because of:
1. Usage of low-probability-of-intercept (LPI) radars with directional beamforming capabilities;
2. Strict management of onboard radar usage (only switching on radar intermittently unless absolutely required);
3. Reliance on passive (IRST) and offboard (note point #4) methods for detection; and
4. Data-linking with other allied assets (AEW&C aircrafts, manned fighters, high-tier U(C)AVs, surface radar assets, satellites etc) in meshed battlefield networks for situational awareness and operational planning/execution.

It would be akin to a person who:
1. Paints himself/herself completely black;
2. Holds a small flashlight that emits a narrow beam of light that points at only one specific direction at any one time;
3. Only turns on the flashlight when needed, and only for short durations;
4. Is equipped with night vision goggles; and
5. Have a phone to communicate with his/her team members spread across a wider area.

Can AEW&C aircrafts do the same as stealth fighters? Of course not, because why would they be called as AEW&C aircrafts if they lose their fundamental functionalities which define their roles and responsibilities in the system?

TL; DR - The contradiction between the nature and roles of stealth fighters and dedicated AEW&C aircrafts is so vast, such concepts of "stealthy AEW&C aircraft" is an outright no-go.
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If we take into account technologies such as the new generation of network-centric warfare + loyal wingman CCA, a large low-observable AEW is not impossible.
It uses a fuselage-distributed radar array instead of a large integrated radar. The same LPI mode scanning is used, but the receiving end is no longer the AEW itself, but the CCA at a longer distance and different angles. This can greatly reduce the difficulty of LPI scanning frequency and time management. Moreover, the power or heat dissipation management of a large AEW is much stronger than that of a fighter jet.
Low-detectable AEW can get closer to high-risk areas while having a better chance of survival. A bulky YJ2000 or E7 will just be shot down like a turkey by the J20 or F35.
In fact, it is not an exaggeration if the J36 can undertake similar tasks. But this only exceeds the capabilities of the F35, and there is still a huge gap between it and large AEW&C aircraft.
Imagine a disco laser ball with flashing lights moving and spinning in a dark room, surrounded by shooters with low-light night vision goggles. The opponent can only see a lot of flashing lights, but rarely can see or shoot the ball.
 
BoraTas

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
ACuriousPLAFan said:
Jack of all trades, master of none.



Because having a "stealthy AEW&C aircraft" is like trying to paint oneself completely black while holding a large flashlight at night, which emits a massive beam of light at a general direction. The enemy likely won't know where you are by looking for you yourself, but they certainly will know where you are by just looking at the source of light (i.e. your flashlight).

5th-gen and 6th-gen stealth fighters can be equipped with AESA radars and still maintain stealth, primarily because of:
1. Usage of low-probability-of-intercept (LPI) radars with directional beamforming capabilities;
2. Strict management of onboard radar usage (only switching on radar intermittently unless absolutely required);
3. Reliance on passive (IRST) and offboard (note point #4) methods for detection; and
4. Data-linking with other allied assets (AEW&C aircrafts, manned fighters, high-tier U(C)AVs, surface radar assets, satellites etc) in meshed battlefield networks for situational awareness and operational planning/execution.

It would be akin to a person who:
1. Paints himself/herself completely black;
2. Holds a small flashlight that emits a narrow beam of light that points at only one specific direction at any one time;
3. Only turns on the flashlight when needed, and only for short durations;
4. Is equipped with night vision goggles; and
5. Have a phone to communicate with his/her team members spread across a wider area.

Can AEW&C aircrafts do the same as stealth fighters? Of course not, because why would they be called as AEW&C aircrafts if they lose their fundamental functionalities which define their roles and responsibilities in the system?

TL; DR - The contradiction between the nature and roles of stealth fighters and dedicated AEW&C aircrafts is so vast, such concepts of "stealthy AEW&C aircraft" is an outright no-go.
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I once argued about this on Quora. The guy said me an AEW with a stealthy body could turn its radar off and run away when it is in danger. The problem with this is, though, you are certainly going to make your AEW less capable by going stealthy. Some people disagree with this but stealth comes with structural and aerodynamic penalties. There are reasons why all subsonic aircraft (transports, passenger aircraft, old bombers like the B-52) are shaped like they are now and that shape is very unstealthy. Also, if you are going stealthy you need internal heat exchangers making cooling a much bigger challenge. Furthermore, the radar itself is a huge return source and it is very hard to mitigate that beyond giving it some angle. Giving it a weird shape would decrease its gain. The problems just never end.

Thus a stealthy AEW is much more expensive, has less endurance, a worse radar and a marginally better survivability. The last one is questionable because turning the radar off also means losing the situational awareness. It just doesn't work
 
A

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
BoraTas said:
I once argued about this on Quora. The guy said me an AEW with a stealthy body could turn its radar off and run away when it is in danger. The problem with this is, though, you are certainly going to make your AEW less capable by going stealthy. Some people disagree with this but stealth comes with structural and aerodynamic penalties. There are reasons why all subsonic aircraft (transports, passenger aircraft, old bombers like the B-52) are shaped like they are now and that shape is very unstealthy. Also, if you are going stealthy you need internal heat exchangers making cooling a much bigger challenge. Furthermore, the radar itself is a huge return source and it is very hard to mitigate that beyond giving it some angle. Giving it a weird shape would decrease its gain. The problems just never end.

Thus a stealthy AEW is much more expensive, has less endurance, a worse radar and a marginally better survivability. The last one is questionable because turning the radar off also means losing the situational awareness. It just doesn't work
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Agreed.

There is also the fundamental operational principle of AEW&C aircrafts, which is that they are pretty much large searchlights/floodlights, meant to light up large spans of area in the pitch black night so that other allied assets can see what's hidden in the darkness. This means that, yes, by default they are quite visible to the enemy thanks to their large radar emissions - But they have to accept the risk, because that's literally their job. That's also why AEW&C aircrafts often stay far behind the frontlines, often behind allied fighters and UCAVs cover.

Somehow, people struggled to understand this simple fact, and thinking that slapping "muh stealth" magically solves all the problems.
 
A

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
BoraTas said:
I once argued about this on Quora. The guy said me an AEW with a stealthy body could turn its radar off and run away when it is in danger. The problem with this is, though, you are certainly going to make your AEW less capable by going stealthy. Some people disagree with this but stealth comes with structural and aerodynamic penalties. There are reasons why all subsonic aircraft (transports, passenger aircraft, old bombers like the B-52) are shaped like they are now and that shape is very unstealthy. Also, if you are going stealthy you need internal heat exchangers making cooling a much bigger challenge. Furthermore, the radar itself is a huge return source and it is very hard to mitigate that beyond giving it some angle. Giving it a weird shape would decrease its gain. The problems just never end.

Thus a stealthy AEW is much more expensive, has less endurance, a worse radar and a marginally better survivability. The last one is questionable because turning the radar off also means losing the situational awareness. It just doesn't work
Click to expand...

Always wondered about how a huge radar array could be protected by stealth coating without diminishing it's efficiency and how that aircraft could be stealthy with an array that big causing a big stealth drawback.

IRST based AEW system could be a thing. 360 coverage with sensors having huge surfaces and also adding multispectral capabilities/ Photocontrast mode. Way more easy to be stealthy, it could be hidden more easily with sliding doors. Just another kind of early warning and track system.

Still mixing up missions types on an airframe always bring peak capabilities down.
 
BoraTas

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
Atomicfrog said:
Always wondered about how a huge radar array could be protected by stealth coating without diminishing it's efficiency and how that aircraft could be stealthy with an array that big causing a big stealth drawback.

IRST based AEW system could be a thing. 360 coverage with sensors having huge surfaces and also adding multispectral capabilities/ Photocontrast mode. Way more easy to be stealthy, it could be hidden more easily with sliding doors. Just another kind of early warning and track system.

Still mixing up missions types on an airframe always bring peak capabilities down.
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We are straying more and more off topic so I will write for the last time. Infrared is simply a short range capability because of atmospheric absorption and scatter. The KJ-700 and 3000 have already incorporated largish EO balls as their noses. I would say there isn't much point in going bigger for IR sensors. The rule of thumb is more opaque an environment is less you benefit from more capable sensors. An analogy would be cameras in paint. In a bucket of paint, an expensive telescope and a cheap toy camera see the same distance (zero)

@Jason_ had a good writing on IR signature reduction (which is relevant to the H-20 too).

Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread

Orca claims that CHAD might have the highest thrust to weight ratio of any fifth or sixth gen fighter aircraft. https://m.weibo.cn/detail/5129609758901071
www.sinodefenceforum.com

The said EO balls are unlikely to be solely intended for aircraft detection too.

PLA AEW&C, SIGINT, EW and MPA thread

I frankly doubt we know enough for that. At this point we really know its class - as well that it's somehow justified over KJ-700 to keep funding. Everything else comes down from that - we know that big jet aircraft have over medium turboprop ones, we know that big radars(esp. in lower bands)...
www.sinodefenceforum.com
 
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