Great Britains experience - a warning to USA

SampanViking

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Hi Knarfo

Be assured Gloabal Strategic Competition is very real and here! The targets of it primarily are the various despots in the developing world, who are being offered to different models for ecconomic and social development.

Of course the competition works on may levels - as many in fact in each country, where any ministry operate any particular policy. The philisophical level, promoted; albeit cynically, provides a popular and morally righteous platform, with which a government can persue its more important and practical policies.

Most despots are most concerned with keeping and exercising power. China's non critical approach to world trade, offers a very real alternative to the Wests "reform or enjoy a colourful revolution" strategy. The key to the competition is of course which sides policy will previal in any contested, target country.

I rather fear that the notion that China and its SCO allies are moving anywhere towards Western Liberal Democracy has more grounds in wishful thinking than reality. What changes thier may have been are probably little more than window dressing or a local solution to little local difficulties.

Journalists do screw up, we will have to wait and see just how accident prone they are becomming.

Now obiously no politician is going to stand up and say I wish China was a basket case, as the trade issue is just too important. Recently however a number of commentators have openly discussed the threat of China as an Authoritarian alternative to the succesful economic model. These tend however to be late night highbrow radio programmes on the BBC.

To reiterate Despots enjoy power and dislike challenges to it. This was the point of French unrest points, simply to compare the Uzbek response (or the Chinese Tianamin Square response) to that of the French (or any other Western nation). As most Despots are not Sociologists from Helsinki, I think the point is clear.

To put this in context then, this has been about a particulat symptom of "Arrogance and Vanity" in which the West might believe it can effect regime change at will on developing nations (China included) and delude themselves; based on the scantiest of evidence, that their policy is succeding, whilst ignoring a great welter on contrary evidence, that clearly demonstrates that it is not.

If todays current political climate in the West is business as usual, do not be surprised if many developing nations take their business elsewhere!!
 

Knarfo

New Member
SampanViking said:
Hi Knarfo

Be assured Gloabal Strategic Competition is very real and here! The targets of it primarily are the various despots in the developing world, who are being offered to different models for ecconomic and social development.

Of course there is economic competion. And a competition for certain resources.

And the other economic model would be?? China is certainly not offering up an alternative. Except for transition from communism to capitalism. Do not do crash privatisations like the russians.
Isn't the developments over the last 15 years proof that the only viable economic model is capitalism in one or the other incarnation.
regarding political models see my previous post.
And btw despots probably only care about their model. Money in their and their cronies pockets. Makes for a happy populace??

Of course the competition works on may levels - as many in fact in each country, where any ministry operate any particular policy. The philisophical level, promoted; albeit cynically, provides a popular and morally righteous platform, with which a government can persue its more important and practical policies.

???? Please provide some concrete examples. You are too vague for my limited comprehension.
Do you mean that a government preaches lofty ideals while some of its actions contradicts these ideals?

Most despots are most concerned with keeping and exercising power. China's non critical approach to world trade, offers a very real alternative to the Wests "reform or enjoy a colourful revolution" strategy. The key to the competition is of course which sides policy will previal in any contested, target country.

"reform or enjoy a colourful revolution" has certainly not been wests approach to China. By noncritical you mean not mixing morals with money. Well that will not happen if the $$$ stakes low or at least noncritical. Like in US-Cuba situation for instance (compared to US-CHINA). Non critical has been the historic norm.

I rather fear that the notion that China and its SCO allies are moving anywhere towards Western Liberal Democracy has more grounds in wishful thinking than reality. What changes thier may have been are probably little more than window dressing or a local solution to little local difficulties.

SCO is a pretty heterogenous lot. Both concerning economics and politics. If the stans follow the chinese model, good for them. I would not bet on it. Most are likely to be run as personal fiefdoms of the current leaders and their cronies for the foreseeable future. China is on a different path althogether. i do not see china reverting back to personal cults of the past just because there are such tendencies in some of the stans.
China making deals with regimes of dubious moral charcter (from a western idealist perspective) for access to gas and oil is no different to what western countries have done post ww2 and indeed still does in some cases. China does not constitute an alternative model in this respect.
Russia is vital to europe as a source for energy so basically the government can treat the citizens anyway they please (not much written about Tchetchnia lately).Officially there might be a line or two mumbled. The rest of SCO has little real consequence to the west/US except for the islamic extremist problem which conviently is on the SCO agenda. The US can afford to loose their Uzbek bases. They are not vital but convinent

Journalists do screw up, we will have to wait and see just how accident prone they are becomming.

Yes. But remember also the times when they get it right. maybe you could keep statistics and post it here :)

Now obiously no politician is going to stand up and say I wish China was a basket case, as the trade issue is just too important. Recently however a number of commentators have openly discussed the threat of China as an Authoritarian alternative to the succesful economic model. These tend however to be late night highbrow radio programmes on the BBC.

In a global economy chinas economic expansion makes the global pie bigger. Chinas economic expansion is not shrinking somebody elses piece if we look at the national level. However it may of course feel like that to somebody whose job just got "exported" to china (or india etc).

And what authoritarian alternative do you talk about.?
China is increasingly capitalist. Capitalism is not a political model. At least not purely. It is mainly a economic model. China is also making impotant reforms to its judicary, allowing more criticism particulary against low-middle level official. This is necessary to make the economy efficient at the same time it is also a democratising step. According to a chinese friend there are nowadays local elections with even some non party candidates. baby steps but still steps.

Should BBC censor these highbrow programmes??

To reiterate Despots enjoy power and dislike challenges to it. This was the point of French unrest points, simply to compare the Uzbek response (or the Chinese Tianamin Square response) to that of the French (or any other Western nation). As most Despots are not Sociologists from Helsinki, I think the point is clear.

So which is preferable then??

And since the occasional despot in the Academic world is not unheard of there may actually be a despot or two among the sociologists at HU.

To put this in context then, this has been about a particulat symptom of "Arrogance and Vanity" in which the West might believe it can effect regime change at will on developing nations (China included) and delude themselves; based on the scantiest of evidence, that their policy is succeding, whilst ignoring a great welter on contrary evidence, that clearly demonstrates that it is not.

I do not think despots make decisions based on such things as arrogant and vain attitude among the western nations. Selfinterest decides.
Compare political climate in china today with the politcal climate 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago. Isn't freer now??
Communism as a economic model came to a dead end it also is coming to an end as a political model. Just a fact. To those who denounce democracy as a awful and ailen western invention I would like to point out that communism is just as "western".
China is changing and the change is uninevitable. into exactly what is open for debate. A lot of changes will stem from the economic imperatives. Succesful and sustainable economic progress needs a functioning and fair judiciary for instance. Modernisation will demand certain things. These are not intrinsically western. It is just that the "west"
modernised, entered the modern age so to speak, earlier.

I would be most interested in your wealth of contrary evidence.

Compare for instance decade by decade the number of democracies in the world.

On the other hand the so called west has not been particulary interested in wheter a regime is democratic or not in the post ww2 era. The main thing was that the dictator/authortarian/baddie/whatever was theirs (Pinochet, Saddam etc).


If todays current political climate in the West is business as usual, do not be surprised if many developing nations take their business elsewhere!!

West is a rather big place. Maybe you only check the local weather. And remember after rain there comes sunshine eventually, at least til there is more rain and so on....

If enough $$$$$/vital economic interests are at stake western democracies will find any government acceptable. Double standards indeed :)
 
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