Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.

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ougoah

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adiru said:
This cyberexpert says the 25% will go to 10% in a tit for tat if the UK doesnt succumb to US pressure to outright ban Huawei.

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While these UK and German examples of relative triumphs in reason and business/free market are nice and welcomed news, the damage the Americans wanted to do has more or less been done. It's slowed Huawei's progress down and tarnished its name. Even a man acquitted of rape allegations will still get side eyed in the small community he lives in. This is just the 5G sector. The blocking of Taiwanese fab access is where the real damage to Huawei has been done.
 
broadsword

broadsword

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adiru said:
This cyberexpert says the 25% will go to 10% in a tit for tat if the UK doesnt succumb to US pressure to outright ban Huawei.

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It did not actually say the "25% will go to 10% in a tit for tat if the UK doesnt succumb to US pressure to outright ban Huawei". That decision is not dependent on whether the UK succumb. But correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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Appix

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tidalwave said:
The VC group asked me to give a cost estimate to buy equipments and parts and setup a demo in the lab.
Well, it's not simple. I will break it down into 3 domains. 1 is the Laser unit that generate EUV light. 2 is the mirror needed for the optical system. 3 is the overall optical system design on how the EUV light propograte.
I suggest they would start on 2, acquire the manufacture knowhow of the mirror. 3, i already got that software and I will give to them along with application files that use this software. I suggest to them to partner up with a univeristy and let the whole group of engineering student play with software until they very proficient in it and start simulate the optical system. The software change change to EUV light based on wavelength and mirror stackup for simulation.
For 3, it's bit hard, meanwhile I acquire the parts to do a proof of concept, master oscillator and amplifier output. Not exactly the same output as the real EUV light generation and but demo of the architecture needed.

For 2, acquiring the knowhow for EUV mirror manufacturing. Since its silicon substrate and on top of it, its Molybenum and Silicon each one is about 3.4nm thick. There 40 layers of them.
I surveyed the chinese market there are DC magnetron Sputtering system for deposition. But I not sure how reliable they are. I may suggest them just use a Fab service like SMIC, HuaHong for making mirror, its like making the chip, dimension wise.

Next is milling for roughness of surface of the mirror down to the spec. Milling would use focused Ion Beam (FIB) tool, each system in US cost $500K. There are couple vendors in Beijing capable of doing Electron Scanning Electron Microscope(SEM), but its not quite FIB. FIB uses Ga+ ion instead of electron to bombard the surface of the mirror to mill or chip the material an atom at a time.
I would suggest to pay the engineering service and cost of one unit to beijing vendor to modifiy its SEM into a FIB. Once they do that, the VC group would retain the IP to the FIB since they pay for engineering service.

Next is the Interferometer + Microscope to profile the mirror surface, the laser interferometer would measure the peak and valley of surface of the mirror. Again, I would suggest to pay for engineering service to acquire such system., There are already chinese vendors capable of doing interferometer , microscope but not combining together. And also write the software for this tool.

So, i suggest them to pay for the engineering service for these two tools and therefore they acquire two core technologies for EUV mirror.

so, this is just starting point of ambitious project that would change the supply chain landscape in China. I don't suggets and go the route of buying ready made western tools try to do something because you don't change your underlying supply chain, you will never cure the fundamental problem.
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Keep us updated, Mr. Tidalwave?
 
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adiru

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This thread is very interesting and I've learned a lot from what tidalwave shared, but does anyone really think anything he publicly disclosed that both the US and Chinese government aren't already fully up to speed and aware of ? It is like a Dan level player watching two Professionals at the game of Go, the Dan player can comment and give outside commentary to the Kyu people watching, but his input wouldn't be of much use to the actual opponents in the game.
 
localizer

localizer

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People underestimate the difficulty of the semiconductor industry. No one can ever be fully independent in this day n age.

There's a never ending chain of tools that need to be acquired.

Let's use the mirror in the EUV machine for example.

A mirror requires machines that can fabricate it to tight tolerances and software that can design it. You also need to coat it with special materials.
The fabrication machine has to be state of the art. The tools that make that machine is also state of the art. Then there's a never ending chain of machines for each part of that machine.
There are few people that can operate optical design software in this world as it requires physics aptitude (quantum mechanics,...)
The coating requires world experts in chemistry and material sciences. The coating then needs another never ending chain of machines to make it.

You literally have to go from figuring out how to acquire the minerals/chemicals for each part of each machine/material to the final assembly of just a mirror.
 
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antiterror13

Brigadier
localizer said:
People underestimate the difficulty of the semiconductor industry. No one can ever be fully independent in this day n age.

There's a never ending chain of tools that need to be acquired.

Let's use the mirror in the EUV machine for example.

A mirror requires machines that can fabricate it to tight tolerances and software that can design it. You also need to coat it with special materials.
The fabrication machine has to be state of the art. The tools that make that machine is also state of the art. Then there's a never ending chain of machines for each part of that machine.
There are few people that can operate optical design software in this world as it requires physics aptitude (quantum mechanics,...)
The coating requires world experts in chemistry and material sciences. The coating then needs another never ending chain of machines to make it.

You literally have to go from figuring out how to acquire the minerals/chemicals for each part of each machine/material to the final assembly of just a mirror.
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and your point related to this thread is ..... ?
 
S

sinophilia

Junior Member
Registered Member
localizer said:
People underestimate the difficulty of the semiconductor industry. No one can ever be fully independent in this day n age.

There's a never ending chain of tools that need to be acquired.

Let's use the mirror in the EUV machine for example.

A mirror requires machines that can fabricate it to tight tolerances and software that can design it. You also need to coat it with special materials.
The fabrication machine has to be state of the art. The tools that make that machine is also state of the art. Then there's a never ending chain of machines for each part of that machine.
There are few people that can operate optical design software in this world as it requires physics aptitude (quantum mechanics,...)
The coating requires world experts in chemistry and material sciences. The coating then needs another never ending chain of machines to make it.

You literally have to go from figuring out how to acquire the minerals/chemicals for each part of each machine/material to the final assembly of just a mirror.
Click to expand...

There are 1.4 billion people in China... What are the total population of countries which contribute to the semiconductor industry? 500 million?

I don't see why China can't be completely 100% independent EASILY (within reasonable time frame of course).

Now, that doesn't mean China will choose to be. It probably won't be a net monetary/productive benefit to do so, so I'm sure China won't.
 
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Chish

Junior Member
Registered Member
sinophilia said:
There are 1.4 billion people in China... What are the total population of countries which contribute to the semiconductor industry? 500 million?

I don't see why China can't be completely 100% independent EASILY (within reasonable time frame of course).

Now, that doesn't mean China will choose to be. It probably won't be a net monetary/productive benefit to do so, so I'm sure China won't.
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A large population is not requisite for advanced technology advancement. USA, CHINA, INDIA, EU still buy and use Israel tech.
 
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sinophilia

Junior Member
Registered Member
Chish said:
A large population is not requisite for advanced technology advancement. USA, CHINA, INDIA, EU still buy and use Israel tech.
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Because they choose to. Excluding India, all those countries have the requisite ability required to eventually wean off all Israeli tech. But again, there is no point so none of them will bother. Except China, but not in all cases.
 
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