Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.

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adiru

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SMEE's DUV machines, SMIC going 28nm to 14nm to 7nm in like a year.

Because it's a fair assumption that top companies in the field know their field and a decent amount about the services they contracted out. And also, given China's thirst for talent, that someone was turned away multiple times shows me that that talent was not someone who could help them. The biggest crazy assumption made here is that if tidalwave says he was valuable to Huawei, then he was.

So what? Can you help on either of these? If so, then go. If they say they don't need you, then maybe they're not as under-prepared as you think. Don't overestimate yourself and assume all values of X are zero for others.

No idea what you're talking about. Public knowledge, no matter in what field, is cheap. If there was anything that tidalwave could offer Huawei, they would have taken him up on it, but he couldn't offer much and they didn't want the public knowledge he had, so they ignored him. Very easy to see from a logical perspective.


Those SMIC and SMEE things are just roadmaps. Lets hope they dont got stuck by bottlenecks.

Yes, in their field, but chip manufacturing is not in their field. Even if the waste treatment specialist is a genius Huawei will not hire him because its not the right field.

Secondly i dont recall reading tidal is looking for a job.

You assume because huawei a company people know what they doing. I gave an example CFO Meng got caught because she didnt even know the basics of data protection.

Well, even if some slides are in public domain. why you assume thats all tidal knows. His analysis went well beyond those on the slides on this thread.
 

adiru

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yes my reasoning as well. I don't think @tidalwave said he was the best but he has provided a lot of technical information ok this forum which has been quite informative and detailed. It helps put a lot of information out there into perspective. Personally I think he added to this thread post and forum in general, even if he can be aggressive at times.


Yes, i would say he raised the awareness of EUV. Without that most people dont know what that is.

But importantly the US CIA and journalists have accessed this thread and bring it all the way to administration and therefore specifically targeting ASML EUV to China and subsequent sanctioning on huawei. Maybe huawei didnt take his proposal and US government did.

What does Pompeo and his researchers in DC know about EUV unless something very profiled topic (Such as higlhly debated thread) in public domain

If thats the case, he created a huge impact , more than anyone gives him credit for.
 
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gadgetcool5

Senior Member
Registered Member
To me the main question with ASML is why did Pompeo get the Netherlands government to agree to export EUV to the US, but not to China? I read in the news that he simply showed an intelligence report to the Netherlands president. Why can't China's diplomats exert influence to get the Netherlands to open back up exports? China doesn't even think of asking the Netherlands to block sale of EUV to Intel and AMD.

What it speaks to is China's diplomatic failure. Getting the UK and Germany on board with 5G means nothing if Huawei can't supply it, and Huawei can't supply it without TSMC or SMIC. The latter needs ASML.
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
To me the main question with ASML is why did Pompeo get the Netherlands government to agree to export EUV to the US, but not to China? I read in the news that he simply showed an intelligence report to the Netherlands president. Why can't China's diplomats exert influence to get the Netherlands to open back up exports? China doesn't even think of asking the Netherlands to block sale of EUV to Intel and AMD.

What it speaks to is China's diplomatic failure. Getting the UK and Germany on board with 5G means nothing if Huawei can't supply it, and Huawei can't supply it without TSMC or SMIC. The latter needs ASML.
The European, Canadian, Australian,NZ governments don't have much of foreign policy. They are client states of the US. Pompeo don't need to ask, he dictates to the Netherlands government, and they will listen.

China can't ask anything, because they don't control the European government.
 

gadgetcool5

Senior Member
Registered Member
You are the one with the over confidence that bothers me the most. I look at China and I see many examples of them NOT being vigilant at all. Yes, the leadership is good in many areas, but they have enormous blind spots in certain areas from what I can tell (unless they're playing 4d chess, which I highly doubt). In fact, their exceptional performance in many areas of governance blinds people like you from recognizing their deficiencies.

I agree with this.

People need to remember that there is a reason for why the trend in the semiconductor industry is towards horizontal integration.

The best talents, science, and innovation will never happen entirely in one country. Even the US, it does not have the best capabilities in many areas.

There is no country in the world that is entirely autarkic and self-reliant. Many countries already tried import substitution industrialization and being self sufficient in everything. Not least the Soviet Union for about 40 years. It does not work. Even if a company is guaranteed a domestic market, all this will do in the long run is remove competitive pressures. The domestic industry will fall further and further behind.

If Huawei is forced to source everything domestically, what happens when a foreign company like ASML has the best product? Its domestic source won't be as good, and its product will suffer, compared to its competitors. Then, Huawei has to focus to make sure all its suppliers are the best in the world, which is unrealistic. This prevents it from focusing on its core competencies, its competitive advantages. This is why the trend for decades has been away from vertical integration. To ask Huawei to go into chip manufacturing or running foundries is backwards when its core competency is 5G. And not only that, but there are hundreds, literally thousands of suppliers that go into IT products, with not only IP but years and decades of know-how. There are breakthroughs being made in basic research in every developed country in the world.

If you are not a part of this collaborative worldwide ecosystem, you are going to fall behind, period. Yes, China can develop some domestic self-sufficiency up and down the supply chain, but the effort put into replicating others' technologies that already exist will not be spent towards improving China's own competitive advantages and going into new innovation. All you are going to do is end up with a cheap substitute that will probably be marginally inferior.

The global semiconductor industry (and other advanced industries) are global for a reason. Not even the US can do anything. There is only a single hegemonic system. You are either part of it, or you are not. The problem for China today is that the US is in control of the system because it is more centrally located. China has no choice but to work to improve its relations with the US or it risks being forced into economic isolation and losing the relative gains of the Deng-Jiang-Hu years.
 

Pkp88

Junior Member
Registered Member
ASML clearly doesn’t need the Chinese market, but there should be an offer on the table that if they supply EUV to China they get some stake in Huawei
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
The West didn't like the Russians at the turn of the 20th century yet they were alarmed that the Japanese won the Russian-Japanese War despite Japanese having willfully surrendered to their gunboat diplomacy and submitting to doing everything Westerners do in life. I'm sure Pompeo gave the Dutch the nightmare scenario of the future if they don't stop China's rise. China will do in the future to them everything the West is doing to China right now.
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
To me the main question with ASML is why did Pompeo get the Netherlands government to agree to export EUV to the US, but not to China? I read in the news that he simply showed an intelligence report to the Netherlands president. Why can't China's diplomats exert influence to get the Netherlands to open back up exports? China doesn't even think of asking the Netherlands to block sale of EUV to Intel and AMD.

What it speaks to is China's diplomatic failure. Getting the UK and Germany on board with 5G means nothing if Huawei can't supply it, and Huawei can't supply it without TSMC or SMIC. The latter needs ASML.
You are forgetting that their EUV source is designed and built by Cymer.
 
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