Future PLAN Backfires versus US carriers (or any other hostile ships for that matter)

Re: Future PLAN Backfires versus US carriers (or any other hostile ships for that mat

slackpiv, you are biased for the west. you can never seem to participate in a china military discussion without somehow bringing up "the superiority of western weapons". at least sea dog has good perspective and insighht into the chinese military. im not attacking you. im just asking you, can you just participate in the diiscussion without bringing up western equipment?

actually, there are 50 f-22s in service. there are around 60 j-10s.
china protects both its airbaes and c4i assets withh sams, which includes other missles, not just the s-300s.

china is about 10 yeas away from feilding j-xx. when it comes out, it will probably be better than the 2005 f-22.(mot 2015 f-22)

Re: Future PLAN Backfires versus US carriers (or any other hostile ships for that mat

Its time for me to defend the USA.

MIGleader said:

slackpiv, you are biased for the west. you can never seem to participate in a china military discussion without somehow bringing up "the superiority of western weapons". at least sea dog has good perspective and insighht into the chinese military. im not attacking you. im just asking you, can you just participate in the diiscussion without bringing up western equipment?

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It is true, though. In general technology level, the USA are far infront of China, and will be there in the near future, as I see it.

actually, there are 50 f-22s in service. there are around 60 j-10s.
china protects both its airbaes and c4i assets withh sams, which includes other missles, not just the s-300s.

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As said, these 50 planes are 5th Generation top modern planes, while the J-10 is Chinas first built 4th Generation fighter.

These few 50 is most likely capable of taking out around 200+ average 4th Generation planes, due to their low RCS and powerful BVR attack-capability.

china is about 10 yeas away from feilding j-xx. when it comes out, it will probably be better than the 2005 f-22.(mot 2015 f-22)

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Doubt it, as China has abselutly no experience with these kind of highly technological planes. For example, Lockheed Martin had around 40 years of Skunk Works behind them when they started the F/A-22 (now F-22A) project.


EDIT:

Found something interesting for you, from SinoDefence itself:

SinoDefence.com said:

The aircraft, which could be designated as J-13 or J-14, is still going through initial concept work, the same stage as the USAF Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) programme in the early 1980s, which later led to the F/A-22 Raptor. Sources within China's confirmed that the SAC is looking at a twin-engine, single-seat, single vertical tale fin design, but other design proposals has yet been ruled out.

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The F/A-22 project took around 20-25 years to develope from the "initiral concept work". What makes you think China will spend only 10 years, when they at the same time have NO experience like the US did?

Re: Future PLAN Backfires versus US carriers (or any other hostile ships for that mat

china has had around 20 years of feilding advanced planes. add that to the russian 40 years.

while china may not have good feeling for advanced planes, it certainly has a good feel for the advanced technology they feild, built up on the civilian and military trade markets. ex. tvc engines and hms, f-22 inovations, were already being used or studied by chinese engineers in the 90s. computers are another good exmple

lets not get off topic here...

Why buy Backfires when China can develop its own STEALTH bomber and deploy it in, say, 10 years time?

Su-34 said:

Why buy Backfires when China can develop its own STEALTH bomber and deploy it in, say, 10 years time?

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That's an interesting point, and good direction for this discussion to take.

If the Tu-22M3 is good, but old, then what is stopping China from making something with a similar role, but newer? We have the JH-7A, that's pretty deadly, but not strategic. I don't know what the relevant limitation in our aircraft making capabilities might be.

I don't think we need something totally strategic like a Tu-160, that's too belligerent. Our national agenda is not to impose our culture and ideology on the world, but to peacefully develop and raise the living standards of our people.

If we can take the JH-7A and evolve it into a Backfire like strategic bomber, that shouldn't take 10 years, maybe 6-7.

Re: Future PLAN Backfires versus US carriers (or any other hostile ships for that mat

Su-34 said:

Why buy Backfires when China can develop its own STEALTH bomber and deploy it in, say, 10 years time?

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It's a big step going from the relativly simple JH-7 to a fullscale stealth bomber.

The US spent about 20 years to fully develope the F/A-22 (now F-22A).
I think thats a hint on how complicated these things are. The US even had experience with the B-2 and F-117.

Re: Future PLAN Backfires versus US carriers (or any other hostile ships for that mat

Gauntlet said:

It's a big step going from the relativly simple JH-7 to a fullscale stealth bomber.

The US spent about 20 years to fully develope the F/A-22 (now F-22A).
I think thats a hint on how complicated these things are. The US even had experience with the B-2 and F-117.

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Information is too hard to keep under wraps, China will get snippets of information here and there about how the US platforms work, and that will help enormously with its development. For example, the pioneer may end up going down a number of dead ends before reaching the right solution, the copier doesn't.

The stealthy J-10C, for example, looks like its on a fast track and I've heard rumors about a 2008-ish service.

Re: Future PLAN Backfires versus US carriers (or any other hostile ships for that mat

Roger604 said:

Information is too hard to keep under wraps, China will get snippets of information here and there about how the US platforms work, and that will help enormously with its development. For example, the pioneer may end up going down a number of dead ends before reaching the right solution, the copier doesn't.

The stealthy J-10C, for example, looks like its on a fast track and I've heard rumors about a 2008-ish service.

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Considering the F-117 has been out for about 2 decades and China still cannot produce anything like it, I don't think that the B-2 or anything similar is in China's future.

One bad thing about being a 'copier' is that your developmental base becomes stale, mostly due because there are lessons in the development phase that you miss out on. The Soviets learned this lesson in the Cold War. The copied technology never is as good as the original. There are no examples of the reverse being true. That's a main drawback to China's model of technological development. Copying designs in modern military hardware will only get so far.

Re: Future PLAN Backfires versus US carriers (or any other hostile ships for that mat

Roger604 said:

The stealthy J-10C, for example, looks like its on a fast track and I've heard rumors about a 2008-ish service.

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Well, 2008-ish service would mean prototypes are defintiely flying now. Could be true, but I doubt it. Would like to see some pics posted here when it does happen, naturally.

Another thing to keep in mind with the J-10C design is that it will more than likely incorporate more LO tech but not be a true "stealth" design. True stealth can arbitrarily be defined as having frontal RCS < 0.1-0.2 m^2. For reference the F-22A is said to have a RCS of around .05 m^2. A clean F-16 has a frontal RCS close to 1 m^2. I think a modified J-10 would be similar to an F-18 in that it incorporates more LO tech than the earlier version but is not a true stealth aircraft. Judging from the only nation to yet field manned stealth aircraft, they must be designed from the ground up to be a stealth plane, modifying an existing conventional design just won"t lead to stealth. Of course, everyone here probably agrees China is also pursuing such an aircraft, designed from the beginning with stealth in mind.

Getting on to the topic at hand, the first stealth aircraft China deploys will be fighter/attack sized and nothing on the order of a Backfire. This just makes sense from a development point of view. The US also considered first developing a large stealth strategic bomber but it became clear that a smaller sized aircraft carried much lower risk with it when attempting to field a revolutionary technology like stealth. This is why the F-117A was the first stealth aircraft, to be followed by the B-2 once the know-how had been accumulated.

As far as a time line for development and operational fielding of a new bomber on the scale of a Backfire, I think 15 years is realistic. Maybe China has already begun, or maybe they will codevelop something similar with the Russians, but such a large advanced system as a strategic bomber will take any country well over a decade to design, develop and put into operation.

KlubMarcus said:

... etc ...Chinese hardware is not combat proven and it's still foreign. Numbers don't matter at all. The only thing that matters is combat performance. The PLA has a HUGE military, but only a fraction of it will be fighting at any one time. So the combat ratio will still favor the USA when the actual shooting starts.

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It is generally accepted the U.S. defeated Germany in WW 2 thru deployment of overwhelming numbers of weapons than rather employing the uses of technical superior weapons. One good example is the German ME 262 jet fighter built in late 1945. These jet fighters have a huge advantage over their American prop-driven counterparts. But fortunately the Germans was only able to built a very small number of them, and could not overcome the overwhelming numbers of Allied prop-driven planes. Numbers do matter ... :coffee: