FFG 054/054A Thread

[crobato]

Could you live with three phase arrays on a ship?
I would say on top of the first mast two arrays directed to the front right and front left and one on the aft mast over the exhaust facing straight back.

that's also possible. One in the rear, two either in the mast or superstructure.

I'm looking at ways how the frigate can evolve if the SAM systems evolve.

If the HH-16 upgrades to using a larger phase array configuration that has both search and FCR purposes, instead of using phase arrays set in Orekhs.

Its possible the need of an AEGIS lite setup can be eliminated in the first place, if the Fregat like Sea Eagle variant and the Type 364 on top of both masts can provide search and track capability, with the HH-16 going with active seekers. You may probably need small datalinks, probably set on the same place where the Orekh clones are.

 

[Gollevainen]

For Crobato's challenge what first came to my mind was the cancelled Russian project 1244.1 Novik class frigate which is strinkingly similar to 054A in both layout and dimension. As you see in the pic there seems to be at least two plannad array radars in the mast which also fields the Fregat as well. Or slightly modified version could have similar mast as in pr. 2235 Sergei Gorshkov...

here's a drawing of Novik:

 

[szbd]

that's also possible. One in the rear, two either in the mast or superstructure.

I'm looking at ways how the frigate can evolve if the SAM systems evolve.

If the HH-16 upgrades to using a larger phase array configuration that has both search and FCR purposes, instead of using phase arrays set in Orekhs.

Its possible the need of an AEGIS lite setup can be eliminated in the first place, if the Fregat like Sea Eagle variant and the Type 364 on top of both masts can provide search and track capability, with the HH-16 going with active seekers. You may probably need small datalinks, probably set on the same place where the Orekh clones are.

Orekh is for semiactive radar guidance. It continuously illuminates the target with its radar beam, the missile receives the radar signal and goes after the target. If you want intermediate guidance, that's the job of search and track radar. Phase array radar is very powerful for this because it can provide many radar beams simultaniously, including the intermediate guidance signal. I don't think datalink works for intermediate guidance of AAW missile. Because datalink is sent like broadcast, and you need very high frequency to let a fast moving receiver such as your AAW missile receive the correct data. And you have multiple missiles flying, the targets are flying too. Therefore you need to broadcast coded data in high frequency and different chanel with very high power. This is like jamming the whole area.

 

[nemo]

Orekh is for semiactive radar guidance. It continuously illuminates the target with its radar beam, the missile receives the radar signal and goes after the target. If you want intermediate guidance, that's the job of search and track radar. Phase array radar is very powerful for this because it can provide many radar beams simultaniously, including the intermediate guidance signal. I don't think datalink works for intermediate guidance of AAW missile. Because datalink is sent like broadcast, and you need very high frequency to let a fast moving receiver such as your AAW missile receive the correct data. And you have multiple missiles flying, the targets are flying too. Therefore you need to broadcast coded data in high frequency and different chanel with very high power. This is like jamming the whole area.

I don't think intermediate guidance need to be complicated . Missile is launch with the guidance turned off. All the director need to do is tell the missile where to go. To engage the target, the director just direct the missile to go close enough to the target, then tell the missile to activate the guidance. The data rate for this does not have to be very high.

 

[szbd]

data issue is not the key. You have to broadcast in high frequency and different channels, that will be a jamming. I'm not sure if it's possible. Usually the intermediate guidance signal is sent by the search and track radar.

 

[tphuang]

Orekh is for semiactive radar guidance. It continuously illuminates the target with its radar beam, the missile receives the radar signal and goes after the target. If you want intermediate guidance, that's the job of search and track radar. Phase array radar is very powerful for this because it can provide many radar beams simultaniously, including the intermediate guidance signal. I don't think datalink works for intermediate guidance of AAW missile. Because datalink is sent like broadcast, and you need very high frequency to let a fast moving receiver such as your AAW missile receive the correct data. And you have multiple missiles flying, the targets are flying too. Therefore you need to broadcast coded data in high frequency and different chanel with very high power. This is like jamming the whole area.

Well, I think Chris knows how Semi-active guidance works. But, this does not necessarily mean a MFR is needed for this. For example, something like Aster 15 needs an update every second. I'd think it would be similar for HH-16. Therefore, what you could do is have the MFR concentrate on its tracking of the targets and then pass the target information to a datalink that's operating on a frequency acceptable for HH-16 and then send the update. And then the FCRs will just provide the terminal illumination.

Remember, if MFR dedicates 1/10 of its resource doing target engagement, that's 1/10 that it can't spend on volume search or tracking of different altitudes. And to make MFR do target update to missiles, your radar would have to support this extra specification, which means it might not be able to operate as well on its other mode compared to the scenario when the radar doesn't have to support this. That's why a special uplink radar is a pretty good idea. But then, this would require additional cost, space and you would have to put it in a position that allows for 360 degree coverage. Actually, the interesting thing about 054A is the guidance. If we consider that the FCRs in 054A is only providing the terminal illumination, then something else have to be tracking targets and sending updates. Sea Eagle certainly doesn't have the refresh rate to do this. SR-64 does, but it's short ranged and that would siginficantly decrease the range of HH-16. So in the end, the FCRs on 054A might still be providing continuous illumination.

 

[szbd]

My concern is how you send the data. We know that a phase array radar can track hundreds of targets. If something can just broadcast the targets' coordinates into the air and every AAW missile has it's on channel so that each missile can attack its own target, then, theoritically you can have infinite missiles in intermediate guidance phase. If the missile is active radar guidanced, then, you can attack infinite targets at the same time as long as you have enough missiles flying. If this is that easy, everybody would have done that. So what I think is either there's a frequency limitation, or the intermediate guidence signal is sent by a narrow beam directly to the missile, that means by a radar, a very powerful radar. If it's because of frequency limitation, which means the data is broadcasted to the missiles, then what's the advantage to use phase array radar for intermediate guidance? Phase array radar never broadcast.

 

[nemo]

I don't see why you would need a unique frequency for each missile in flight -- all you really need to do is to include missile ID in the command and each missile only respond to one missile ID. This is how ethernet works anyway -- the algorithm for this is well known.

 

[szbd]

Man, if you can use something similar to ethernet to control your missiles, NMD is already fully operational now.

 

[tphuang]

My concern is how you send the data. We know that a phase array radar can track hundreds of targets. If something can just broadcast the targets' coordinates into the air and every AAW missile has it's on channel so that each missile can attack its own target, then, theoritically you can have infinite missiles in intermediate guidance phase. If the missile is active radar guidanced, then, you can attack infinite targets at the same time as long as you have enough missiles flying. If this is that easy, everybody would have done that. So what I think is either there's a frequency limitation, or the intermediate guidence signal is sent by a narrow beam directly to the missile, that means by a radar, a very powerful radar. If it's because of frequency limitation, which means the data is broadcasted to the missiles, then what's the advantage to use phase array radar for intermediate guidance? Phase array radar never broadcast.

They use different channels for each missile. For example, Sampson and Herakles are both said to be able to control more than 10 missiles (in fact Sampson is said to have multiple engagement tracks, allowing for many channels and engage "several 10s" targets). Remember, there is a huge difference between the frequency you use to send to missile and the frequency you use to track targets. You want to be able to use a frequency that would give you reliable tracking and have high refreshment rate (like 1 per second).