F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread
- Thread starter Jeff Head
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TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Pentagon Investigation Says Acting SecDef Shanahan Was Justifiably Critical Of The F-35
The Pentagon's top watchdog found other senior U.S. military officials echoed many of Shanahan's "substantive" complaints.
Despite the title.
Brumby
Major
The drive article is worth reading in full because there is a clear distinction between management issues of the program and the capabilities of the F-35. This article reinforce the fact that the capabilities of the F-35 are not disputed but there are clearly deficiencies in cost control that need management attention and improvement. For example IMO, Block 4 development latest projection will cost additional $22 Billion on top of original forecast. At this rate, how can they even afford a 6th gen program?
There are folks that love to hate the F-35 and will do anything, look for anything, dig up anything negative to say about the program.
It's a BIG program.
I do not believe the technical capabilities that the military forces and Lockheed have been touting are not in dispute.
With any such large program you are going to find, and should find and address cost and program issues. Program issues lead to delays and with a program like this, bringing forward critical technologies and capabilities for the war-fighters...you do not want delays.
So...I am happy for them to control those issues.
I do note that the current const of the Alpha is coming up on the cost estimates that Lockheed predicted and that is a good thing.
The R&D efforts to improve the aircraft overtime are dependent on what the military (US and other nations) ask for. The 22 Billion is something Lockheed is estimating based on what they have been asked for and there is a whole lot of that we the public simply do not know...nor should a lot of the cutting edge R&D be out in the public domain.
We will get to the 6th gen aircraft. Grumman and Boeing are already well along in a lot of the details of that program. But it, understandably has a long ways to go yet. I expect it will be very good and will provide capabilities we are just starting to get some whiffs of.
In the mean time, I continue with my firm belief that the F-35 in its 3 versions is going to provide the US and a number of our allies with a very critical cutting edge 5th generation strike package that will make a huge difference in how we fight with those aircraft, and will provide significant difficulties for any potential adversaries.
The Bravo version itself, being out there on the decks of numerous US and allied warships, is going to be a game changer...but they have to support what it brings to the table with better AEW and better ASW off of those platforms than they have provided to date. You all know my own thoughts on this matter. The platform to provide that improvement already exists and has already been well thought out for both missions. It is just waiting for someone to pick it up. That someone should be the US since the US will be the largest single purchaser of the Bravo aircraft, and will have it on the largest number of very expensive and very capable LHD and LHA vesels.
Having an AEW capability that triple or even quadruples what some of the helicopter based AEW packages provide from the existing vessels is critical to ensuring overall mission success and protection. The same is true for ASW capabilities.
I am going to buy a couple of V-22s and build them up, in some detail, for both missions. I will then get really decent videos of them and ensure that people I know at USNI and within the forces see them and can consider those options. Bell is anxious for someone to make a move.
I believe Japan will want to make such a move...but right now with only two vessels, and probably a maximum of four, they do not have, and never will have, the ability to buy as many aircraft as the US Navy would for its LHDs and LHAs on behalf of protecting the US Marine personnel and F-35Bs on those vessels. I believe those ships can and should use a small squadron of each of the V-22 aircraft I am talking about whether they are carrying a standard Amphibious Assault support squadron of six F-35B aircraft, or a sea control/escort carrier number of 20 or more F-35Bs. That would mean ten+ squadrons of aircraft for AEW, each squadron having a minimum of 3 aircraft, or more advisably four aircraft. Each one should also carry a minimum squadron of four, and a more advisable squadron of six ASW V-22s. Then you need a training regiment of four to six squadrons and a test regiment of two to thee squadrons.
That means the most advisable would be 10 squadrons of four for the vessels, six training squadrons of four, and three test squardons of four, or a total of 19 squadrns...call it 20 squadrons of four aircraft and you need 80 AEW and 120 ASW V-22 aircraft for the US alone.
Then you look at say Japan. Right now they would need two squadrons of four for their ships, two squadrons of four each for training and two squadrons of four each for testing. That's six squardorns of four or twenty four AEW and 36 ASW aircraft.
Korea would need the same.
Italy would need the same.
Spain would need less for their single vessel unless they decided to get a second carrier...which IMHO would be advisable.
India has interest, but for a three carrier grouping so they will need more, probably nine total squadrons.
If that was the entire need, you are talking about 50-55 total squardns, or about 220-240 AEW aircraft and 300-330 ASW aircraft. That's a sizable total number and something that the US and its allies should very seriously consider and begin talking with Bell about from a total need standpoint so they can fet the best costing available.
We'll see what happens...but I know the need is there...and in fact the US Navy could use the ASW version for all of its CVNs as well and add at least another ten squadrons for that...or another 60 aircraft, meaning now the need goes up over 400 total aircraft for the ASW version.
Later, 20-30 years from now, you then upgrade that capability with the newer VTOL aircraft that will be coming out in the 2030s to those newer platforms, transitioning in the 2040 time frame.
@bd popeye @Air Force Brat @Deino @asif iqbal @duncanidaho @Equation @Brumby @TerraN_EmpirE @SamuraiBlue
It's a BIG program.
I do not believe the technical capabilities that the military forces and Lockheed have been touting are not in dispute.
With any such large program you are going to find, and should find and address cost and program issues. Program issues lead to delays and with a program like this, bringing forward critical technologies and capabilities for the war-fighters...you do not want delays.
So...I am happy for them to control those issues.
I do note that the current const of the Alpha is coming up on the cost estimates that Lockheed predicted and that is a good thing.
The R&D efforts to improve the aircraft overtime are dependent on what the military (US and other nations) ask for. The 22 Billion is something Lockheed is estimating based on what they have been asked for and there is a whole lot of that we the public simply do not know...nor should a lot of the cutting edge R&D be out in the public domain.
We will get to the 6th gen aircraft. Grumman and Boeing are already well along in a lot of the details of that program. But it, understandably has a long ways to go yet. I expect it will be very good and will provide capabilities we are just starting to get some whiffs of.
In the mean time, I continue with my firm belief that the F-35 in its 3 versions is going to provide the US and a number of our allies with a very critical cutting edge 5th generation strike package that will make a huge difference in how we fight with those aircraft, and will provide significant difficulties for any potential adversaries.
The Bravo version itself, being out there on the decks of numerous US and allied warships, is going to be a game changer...but they have to support what it brings to the table with better AEW and better ASW off of those platforms than they have provided to date. You all know my own thoughts on this matter. The platform to provide that improvement already exists and has already been well thought out for both missions. It is just waiting for someone to pick it up. That someone should be the US since the US will be the largest single purchaser of the Bravo aircraft, and will have it on the largest number of very expensive and very capable LHD and LHA vesels.
Having an AEW capability that triple or even quadruples what some of the helicopter based AEW packages provide from the existing vessels is critical to ensuring overall mission success and protection. The same is true for ASW capabilities.
I am going to buy a couple of V-22s and build them up, in some detail, for both missions. I will then get really decent videos of them and ensure that people I know at USNI and within the forces see them and can consider those options. Bell is anxious for someone to make a move.
I believe Japan will want to make such a move...but right now with only two vessels, and probably a maximum of four, they do not have, and never will have, the ability to buy as many aircraft as the US Navy would for its LHDs and LHAs on behalf of protecting the US Marine personnel and F-35Bs on those vessels. I believe those ships can and should use a small squadron of each of the V-22 aircraft I am talking about whether they are carrying a standard Amphibious Assault support squadron of six F-35B aircraft, or a sea control/escort carrier number of 20 or more F-35Bs. That would mean ten+ squadrons of aircraft for AEW, each squadron having a minimum of 3 aircraft, or more advisably four aircraft. Each one should also carry a minimum squadron of four, and a more advisable squadron of six ASW V-22s. Then you need a training regiment of four to six squadrons and a test regiment of two to thee squadrons.
That means the most advisable would be 10 squadrons of four for the vessels, six training squadrons of four, and three test squardons of four, or a total of 19 squadrns...call it 20 squadrons of four aircraft and you need 80 AEW and 120 ASW V-22 aircraft for the US alone.
Then you look at say Japan. Right now they would need two squadrons of four for their ships, two squadrons of four each for training and two squadrons of four each for testing. That's six squardorns of four or twenty four AEW and 36 ASW aircraft.
Korea would need the same.
Italy would need the same.
Spain would need less for their single vessel unless they decided to get a second carrier...which IMHO would be advisable.
India has interest, but for a three carrier grouping so they will need more, probably nine total squadrons.
If that was the entire need, you are talking about 50-55 total squardns, or about 220-240 AEW aircraft and 300-330 ASW aircraft. That's a sizable total number and something that the US and its allies should very seriously consider and begin talking with Bell about from a total need standpoint so they can fet the best costing available.
We'll see what happens...but I know the need is there...and in fact the US Navy could use the ASW version for all of its CVNs as well and add at least another ten squadrons for that...or another 60 aircraft, meaning now the need goes up over 400 total aircraft for the ASW version.
Later, 20-30 years from now, you then upgrade that capability with the newer VTOL aircraft that will be coming out in the 2030s to those newer platforms, transitioning in the 2040 time frame.
@bd popeye @Air Force Brat @Deino @asif iqbal @duncanidaho @Equation @Brumby @TerraN_EmpirE @SamuraiBlue
IT is not the 1500 billion $ that makes this program a disaster, but the 2000 $ initial program specification and project plant .
They made many decision 20+ years ago that can not be fixed by any 100 billion $, like to make a common platform for all three type, single engine (due to the B version) ,R&D and manufacture simultaneously and so on.
It is like to design a muzzle-loading rifle for a modern military.
If you willing to fork out 100 million of $ then you can get something that is on the same level like a sub quality breech loader .
It is an old (engineering) wisdom, 90% of the product cost is defined during the design phase, and the design phase using up only 5-10% of the full project cost.
Brumby
Major
F-35 aircraft availability falling short of targeted requirements according to GAO's latest report.
One of the key driver in driving down availability is spare parts management. According to the GAO report, the program doesn't even have a spare parts inventory management system.
This type of management oversight is so egregious that it is hard to believe that it can happen to a multi billion dollar program.
One of the key driver in driving down availability is spare parts management. According to the GAO report, the program doesn't even have a spare parts inventory management system.
This type of management oversight is so egregious that it is hard to believe that it can happen to a multi billion dollar program.
It's a waste of money. Knowing government they'll buy those parts 1-2 more times. Unless that's what was intended.
I've worked at the intersection of private/public sectors (Sold $1-2 million equipment). I can tell you that companies love tax payer funded stuff. The buyers are usually financially illiterate, lazy, and in general just doesn't give af. The government people maybe be good in their little specialized field, but they suck at everything else. That's why they're in government.
Hell that Chinese guy next door could take the parts back to China and no one would know.
I've worked at the intersection of private/public sectors (Sold $1-2 million equipment). I can tell you that companies love tax payer funded stuff. The buyers are usually financially illiterate, lazy, and in general just doesn't give af. The government people maybe be good in their little specialized field, but they suck at everything else. That's why they're in government.
Hell that Chinese guy next door could take the parts back to China and no one would know.
Sure Gent's, that's why LockMart has produced 385 flying certified aircraft to Chengdu's 20 or so and Sukhoi's 10 flying certified aircraft, I wouldn't take the little Govt accountants "panic attack" too seriously, the GAO is loves to make their little "Gotcha!" headlines and attempt to make the US military look bad...
Mostly a Dim run operation with professional Govt attitudes, hanging on the "hind teat" of your tax dollars.....
Honestly, people should know by now that these "fits and starts" are also a result of Obama years sequestration and military budget cuts to fund their "Obama Phone" vote buying plans....
We've been playing "catch-up" for President Trump's first 2 1/2 years, while the Dim's and the lame stream media have been attempting a "coup-de-tat"...
In any regard, no doubt parts are in demand and in short supply, those early production birds will continue to require a lot of love and money, if you think its bad now, just wait until Turkey gets the "boot" from the program...
if you want to pretend other militaries around the world are not having these same issues, help yourself if it makes you feel "superior", everyone else is....
Jura The idiot
General
for years I've been wondering if LockMart is THAT cynical and over-engineers so that the Pentagon will have to stockpile parts to be able to fly at least some aircraft
GAO Hits F-35 Readiness, Blames Parts Pipeline
F-35 full mission capability rate only 27% due to parts shortages
U.S. Marine Corps Deploying Incompatible F-35 Spare Parts
GAO Hits F-35 Readiness, Blames Parts Pipeline
F-35 full mission capability rate only 27% due to parts shortages
U.S. Marine Corps Deploying Incompatible F-35 Spare Parts
Dint they have fancy logistics system that's supposed to cure all of these ills