F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

[gelgoog]

The F-35 tech advantage is overblown. I'll tell you why. We used to be scared of the Soviet conventional forces back in the Cold War. Namely they had a lot more tanks than NATO. It turned out the tanks never became a problem. Because the Soviets wouldn't use the conventional forces against another nuclear power. Same deal will happen with the F-35. Some people seem to think the Russians would not use nuclear weapons. I think it is telling that Putin distanced himself from the Soviet Union's stance that they would not do a first strike. Putin has said more than once that Russia might use nuclear weapons to defend itself even if it isn't hit with nuclear weapons first. I think if any NATO member actually used their air force to attack the Russian Federation, like was done in Serbia, the Russians would go nuclear unlike what people think. It is quite likely they would hit military targets first but I think they would do it. All the major powers are moving us to a situation closer to what was the envisioned nuclear scenario in the 1960s. i.e. tactical use of nuclear weapons.
Why do you think the Russians have developed the Iskander and the Kinzhal? Or the US is adding a JDAM package to the B-61 nuclear bomb?

The major powers want to have tactical nuclear weapons in their arsenal. This is something that has changed since the situation we had in the 1990s.

With regards to the F-35 it is a means for NATO to continue having the advantage in conventional air forces. But at what cost? If they don't decrease the operational costs with the F-35 it might become the Western air force's undoing rather its savior. In a way I think the worst enemy of the F-35 program is itself.

 

[Brumby]

I talked about F-35 vs S-400 (two posts in the previous page: https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/f-...er-news-videos-and-pics-thread.t5796/page-654) so I'm not sure why did you give me "F-35 vs F-35" LOL

My mistake. Just ignore it then. No worries.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

The F-35 tech advantage is overblown. I'll tell you why. We used to be scared of the Soviet conventional forces back in the Cold War. Namely they had a lot more tanks than NATO.

The objective of Fifth generation platforms is to be able to operate as part of a package of strike options in denied airspace. Including use as a tactical nuclear platform.
Warsaw pact tanks couldn't do that. And tanks of the Warsaw pact and NATO are designed to operate in irradiated environments. The Russians intended to use them in nuked territory same as Putin's claim.

With regards to the F-35 it is a means for NATO to continue having the advantage in conventional air forces. But at what cost? If they don't decrease the operational costs with the F-35 it might become the Western air force's undoing rather its savior. In a way I think the worst enemy of the F-35 program is itself.

Price of admission. Upside you can enter airspace with systems like S400 with reduced risk. That doesn't automatically mean Russia or China mind you. Russia is selling the system abroad.
We see operations in Syria for example where in text book denied airspace has been formed and the response is text book counter denial. Known use of F22, F35I, B2. rumored use of Predator C, Stealth Hawk helicopter, F117 and RQ170 to support operations and increased use of stand off weapons.
Rendering the attempt at denial less effective. Although fourth gen fighters and older assets like B52 and A10 are locked out of secured air space the US military presence is maintained and regular operations and support occurs and is retained.
What this means is attempting to use systems like S400 Offensively that is to say extending a IAD zone beyond that that was already in place as part of your nations recognized sphere has been rendered mute. So if you are a nation looking to annex territory from your neighbor and to do so plant S400 systems like a wall to keep others out fifth gens like F35 show up and kick the door open it not down.

The Nuclear option is a absolute act of desperation. Once it falls Game Over as a suicide pact is signed. At best it's the ultimate scorched earth. Rendering the territory uninhabitable and the nation state that used them at the very least a pariah. At worst it results in rendering the entire northern hemisphere a disaster for decades. It's getting angry with the neighbors over a tree so you burn it down even as it burns your house down.

 

[localizer]

The objective of Fifth generation platforms is to be able to operate as part of a package of strike options in denied airspace. Including use as a tactical nuclear platform.
Warsaw pact tanks couldn't do that. And tanks of the Warsaw pact and NATO are designed to operate in irradiated environments. The Russians intended to use them in nuked territory same as Putin's claim.

Price of admission. Upside you can enter airspace with systems like S400 with reduced risk. That doesn't automatically mean Russia or China mind you. Russia is selling the system abroad.
We see operations in Syria for example where in text book denied airspace has been formed and the response is text book counter denial. Known use of F22, F35I, B2. rumored use of Predator C, Stealth Hawk helicopter, F117 and RQ170 to support operations and increased use of stand off weapons.
Rendering the attempt at denial less effective. Although fourth gen fighters and older assets like B52 and A10 are locked out of secured air space the US military presence is maintained and regular operations and support occurs and is retained.
What this means is attempting to use systems like S400 Offensively that is to say extending a IAD zone beyond that that was already in place as part of your nations recognized sphere has been rendered mute. So if you are a nation looking to annex territory from your neighbor and to do so plant S400 systems like a wall to keep others out fifth gens like F35 show up and kick the door open it not down.

The Nuclear option is a absolute act of desperation. Once it falls Game Over as a suicide pact is signed. At best it's the ultimate scorched earth. Rendering the territory uninhabitable and the nation state that used them at the very least a pariah. At worst it results in rendering the entire northern hemisphere a disaster for decades. It's getting angry with the neighbors over a tree so you burn it down even as it burns your house down.

I agree with him. I don’t think we will see F35 be used against a nuclear power offensively, especially it they don’t have a hard counter. Russia will use nukes and they have 1000x more land than retaliatory nukes can cover. Nuclear winter is a lie.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

I agree with him. I don’t think we will see F35 be used against a nuclear power offensively,

your agreement is irrelevant. Resistance is Futile.
As the Nuclear statements in this context are the debaters tactical nuclear option. An attempt at dismissal of the Red Flag exercise in question, by twisting into a hypothetical war sinario IE NATO vs Russia or NATO Vs China.

Not all nations with IAD are nuclear powers, nor would all such potentials have a nuclear option.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Yet it seems to be no issue to allow Israeli F-35s to fly under the range of the S-400 the Russians have in Latakia.

Of course its not an issue, do you think the Israeli's are exposing their L/0 aircraft to the S-400's, NO, they're not. There's NO doubt in my mind that Turkey would use those F-35's to run on those S-400's and hopefully find a "chink in its armor", as well as attempting to refine their tactics going up against the S-400..

I mean, think about it, if you had both systems wouldn't you run them up against each other?? of course you would, but that would "void the warranty" so to speak, we've spent a lot of time, and boatloads of "loot" to bring those F-35's into the 21st Century, that tech is what will continue to protect us from "goofballs" doing stupid stuff...

Had the Trumpster been President, when the Russians moved on former Soviet Georgia, things would have ended much differently, and the Ukraine would have never happened... the Bamster just doesn't have the "Stones" to have said NO to Putin....

So although the F-35 was NOT up and running at that time, the F-22 applied in a "show of force", with supporting actors, would have shut that operation down in a hurry.....

 

[gelgoog]

The Russian intervention on Georgia happened back when Bush was POTUS. Don't let that go over your idea that Obama is responsible for the US's "weak stance" against Russia though.

 

[Air Force Brat]

The Russian intervention on Georgia happened back when Bush was POTUS. Don't let that go over your idea that Obama is responsible for the US's "weak stance" against Russia though.

You're right, but allowing those things to continue and roll into the taking of the Crimea, that's disgraceful,,, "tell Vlad that after the election, I can be more flexible", Obama owns that Bub....

I'm sure Putin was impressed by the Obama, remember on his last visit to China, President Xi didn't bother to roll out the airstair for him to de-plane, he had to go down the back ramp.....

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

They actually have a thrust Vectoring Nozzle in the F35 the multi-axis thrust vectoring (MATV) system which is still in the F35B as part of the lift system 3 barring swivel nozzle (which is not a licensed nore copy of the Yak141) it's used in that to control vertical hover although it might be used in maneuver. Always felt that should be on A at least.

.

moving My reply here as, this kinda became more of an F35 debate.

On the F-35B the Aft lift nozzle will never be used in ACM, it only deflects downward, OVT is primarily used to increase positive "pitch rate" in ACM, with the "locks off" the FCS, AF-2 has been to 9.9 positive G's, on production aircraft the A model "locks out" at 9G's......

So OVT would be overkill on the F-35, watch the F-35 demo teaser's out now, the first show will be in about 2 weeks, there's a real 9G break-out, of course the "silly people" will continue to "parrot" their "F-35 can't turn Krap", but that keeps it fun, doesn't it....

I can assure you the F-35 has all the negative G "pitch rate" anybody can stand, my buddy "Klepto" suggested that more than 2 G's negative was hell, and he might have been to negative 3G's, but he didn't think so? he's an F-22 stick, flew the F-22 out for "static displays"..

I am well aware that F35 can turn and is very nimble it just seemed like it would be an additional icing on the cake for the A version.

Actually the MATV 3D TVC nozzle isn't used on any F-35 variant - are you thinking of the non-TVC LOAN (Low-Observable Axisymmetric Nozzle) which was likewise first flown on a F-16 test bed? That indeed formed the basis for the production F135 nozzle. As for the 3BSN on the F-35B, it's useless in wing-borne flight because the arc through which the nozzle can move in the pitch axis only goes from straight aft to -95° (slightly forward of staight down) and no left/right movement is possible in the retracted position.

right had to re fresh myself MATV was on the F16 VISTA in the 1980s LOAN was in 1996. That said nothing says MATV didn't help design LOAN And neither F16 had the three barring lift system of the F35B so the flight tests must have been in conventional flight modes. Not Vertical hover.
The LOAN was farther touted as a potential retrofit to existing fighters.
The three barring swivel system is what turns the exhaust system from the normal orientation into the downward position for vertical hover. but that is not the LOAN. Loan doesn't deflect -95º.
This was the LOAN on F16.
Loan is the actual nozzle it's self and allows a farther degree of Vectoring.
This is the Three Barring Swivel
It's I suppose it's own form of TVC but specialized for vertical thrust. This combined with some smaller Vectoring nozzles and the Rolls Royce lift fan which it's own Vectoring features are what is in F35B.
But other than the Low Observable features I don't think F35 has the LOAN it has features of it but not it in total.

 

[Air Force Brat]

moving My reply here as, this kinda became more of an F35 debate.


I am well aware that F35 can turn and is very nimble it just seemed like it would be an additional icing on the cake for the A version.
right had to re fresh myself MATV was on the F16 VISTA in the 1980s LOAN was in 1996. That said nothing says MATV didn't help design LOAN And neither F16 had the three barring lift system of the F35B so the flight tests must have been in conventional flight modes. Not Vertical hover.
The LOAN was farther touted as a potential retrofit to existing fighters.
The three barring swivel system is what turns the exhaust system from the normal orientation into the downward position for vertical hover. but that is not the LOAN. Loan doesn't deflect -95º.
This was the LOAN on F16. View attachment 51308
Loan is the actual nozzle it's self and allows a farther degree of Vectoring.
This is the Three Barring Swivel View attachment 51309
It's I suppose it's own form of TVC but specialized for vertical thrust. This combined with some smaller Vectoring nozzles and the Rolls Royce lift fan which it's own Vectoring features are what is in F35B.
But other than the Low Observable features I don't think F35 has the LOAN it has features of it but not it in total.

Roger that, and to further confuse the issue, an F-35B with the forward lift fan door open and the aft nozzle deflected at an angle similar to when it flys off the flat decks would indeed have more "lift", and it might actually increase turn rate, but it would be highly airspeed limited.....

I doubt the FCS would allow the aft nozzle to be deflected downward with the forward lift door closed??

what would be the max airspeed with the lift fan door opened

So now for the 64 dollar question?? (that does date us, doesn't it?) when the F-35 Bravo is all cleaned up and transitioned to forward thrust, lift fan door down and locked, does that lift fan continue to spin at a high rpm, or is it taken off line, only to spin up as the forward lift fan is "unlatched"...