F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

[Air Force Brat]

eh? sorry too lazy to look up what I said but if you asked me if the F35 superior or even on par with the F-22 ... the answer is of course not in the realm of ACM and dogfighting. Not even close. I don't think anyone here disagrees with that.
However I think right now you guys are talking about the Hi-Lo mix and the force multiplier of the F-22 with F35 as piggy backs. I also agree with what Gen Hostage said in regards to the F-35 (taken in context). I don't think he was bashing the F-35 as much as to maybe imply the Pentagon should bought more Raptors to supplement the F-35s.
There is no question in my mind that in a modern high intensity, high threat environment an offensive strike package of F-22s proving air cover with F-35s doing the ground pounding would be the most effective mix.

Anyway the design requirements and objectives of the F-22 was very simple. Make a plane that is a direct replacement for the F-15s in A2A with the most advanced but feasible technologies available. PERIOD!
There were not a lot of compromises that needed to be made either during or after the fact. There were no 'partner' nations, no different variants and certainly not much in terms of the consolidation of supply chain and manufacturing.
The primary politicking at that time that was involved was who was going to built them. Lockheed or McD/Boeing/Northrop.

The ugly politics (which ultimately led to the decrease in acquisition) of the Raptor primarily came about AFTER the plane is all good and done and way passed LRIP. Heck, had the Pentagon chose the YF23 it would've been an equally good choice as well and the F23 would've evolved into the most dominant 5th gen fighter today like the Raptor has, dare I say maybe even a tad better because the specs for YF23 was actually a tad more capable than the YF-22.


* as a side note people need to also realized that when the YF-22/23 came about in the initial planning and development stages, the world was also a different place then when the JSF program came about. Reagan was president, Berlin Wall was still up and Pentagon, DoD was run by old school Generals and Admirals. The US still had to worry about the USSR/Warsaw Pact nations and their numerical fighter superirority especialyl n the European theater. Around that time frame, the USSR had also just released the likes of the Mig 29s and the SU 27s which made people sweat a lot!
To make the engineers sweat even more F-15s had a PROVEN A2A combat ratio W/O a single air to air loss! Perspective was different then then they were later. The engineers etc were DETERMINED to make the absolute best A2A platform and F15 Eagle replacement they possibly could no holds barred.

Amen, and you're absolutely correct. a barbrother is taking General Hostages statement in support of the F-35, and affirming our HI/LO strategy with the F-22 at the top of the food chain, and attempting to use them against the F-35. General Hostages statements affirmed the USAF policy of the F-22 as the Hi end, the F-35 as the LO end, just as we used the F-15/F-16 to imply that the F-35 is inferior to almost everything in the Air to Air mode, and that simply is not true. The F-35 is very likely number two on the list of superlative air to air platforms and is being marketed as such to our partners. Air Marshal Brown of Australia affirming that the F-35 was 10-20 years ahead of PAK-FA, J-20 etc when it comes to fifth gen capability, and that Australia is very satisfied that it is the right airplane for the job. In short Gen Hostage stated that it might take eight F-35s to match the A2A of two F-22s, and no doubt General Hostage is correct. General Hostage went as far as saying the F-35 is superior to the F-22 in regards to stealth/LO??? I found that rather fantastic, but hey, the F-35 is very stealthy, and its coatings are much easier to maintain, the reason I suppose General Hostage stated that he would "fight to the death" to protect the F-35.

 

[tphuang]

Amen, and you're absolutely correct. a barbrother is taking General Hostages statement in support of the F-35, and affirming our HI/LO strategy with the F-22 at the top of the food chain, and attempting to use them against the F-35. General Hostages statements affirmed the USAF policy of the F-22 as the Hi end, the F-35 as the LO end, just as we used the F-15/F-16 to imply that the F-35 is inferior to almost everything in the Air to Air mode, and that simply is not true. The F-35 is very likely number two on the list of superlative air to air platforms and is being marketed as such to our partners. Air Marshal Brown of Australia affirming that the F-35 was 10-20 years ahead of PAK-FA, J-20 etc when it comes to fifth gen capability, and that Australia is very satisfied that it is the right airplane for the job. In short Gen Hostage stated that it might take eight F-35s to match the A2A of two F-22s, and no doubt General Hostage is correct. General Hostage went as far as saying the F-35 is superior to the F-22 in regards to stealth/LO??? I found that rather fantastic, but hey, the F-35 is very stealthy, and its coatings are much easier to maintain, the reason I suppose General Hostage stated that he would "fight to the death" to protect the F-35.

It seems to me that F-35 is a generation ahead of F-22 in the electronics. While no one expects it to have F-22's power and flight performance, it's probably the 2nd most capable A2A platform when it operates in the network centric environment that really enhances all of its capabilities. All this F-35 bashing makes people think of it as a bomb truck, when it's so far away from that.

 

[A Bar Brother]

Carlo Kopp is a very bad source.

It depends on what you are looking for. His F-35 rambling is obviously biased towards the Flankers, but his website is a treasure trove of knowledge of Russian systems. He seems to have good Russian sources. He also explains some things that makes it easy for laymen to understand.

 

[A Bar Brother]

eh? sorry too lazy to look up what I said but if you asked me if the F35 superior or even on par with the F-22 ... the answer is of course not in the realm of ACM and dogfighting. Not even close. I don't think anyone here disagrees with that.

You agreed with me when I said the F-35 won't match up to the PAKFA or J-20. That basically meant the F-35 won't match up to the F-22 of course.

I don't think he was bashing the F-35 as much as to maybe imply the Pentagon should bought more Raptors to supplement the F-35s.

Nobody is bashing the F-35 here. I don't think saying the A-10 is incapable of air superiority missions should be construed as bashing the A-10. So, some things the F-35 isn't designed for, the F-35 is incapable of matching up to such standards, that's not bashing.

 

[Air Force Brat]

It seems to me that F-35 is a generation ahead of F-22 in the electronics. While no one expects it to have F-22's power and flight performance, it's probably the 2nd most capable A2A platform when it operates in the network centric environment that really enhances all of its capabilities. All this F-35 bashing makes people think of it as a bomb truck, when it's so far away from that.

Thank you TP, your understanding of aircraft and systems is a God-send brother, I'm thankful for someone knowledgeable enough to bring some common sense back to this thread on the F-35. I am actually very impressed by the F-35s Air to Air capability, and the situational awareness and electronics would likely be a threat even to the Raptor. It will be most interesting to see how block III shapes up for both aircraft, these are indeed exciting times in the Fighter world!

 

[Air Force Brat]

You agreed with me when I said the F-35 won't match up to the PAKFA or J-20. That basically meant the F-35 won't match up to the F-22 of course.



Nobody is bashing the F-35 here. I don't think saying the A-10 is incapable of air superiority missions should be construed as bashing the A-10. So, some things the F-35 isn't designed for, the F-35 is incapable of matching up to such standards, that's not bashing.

I think you really ought to read TPs post bar brother, he knows what he is talking about, and you really ought to be ashamed of calling Air Marshall Brown a liar when he states that the F-35 is 10 to 20 years ahead of PAK-FA and J-20, his credibility is far in excess of the bar brother, and he does have access to "all" the data, not just sales brochures and pixie dust! besides that's just NOT classy, and the Sino Defense has lots of class!

 

[A Bar Brother]

The F-35 is very likely number two on the list of superlative air to air platforms and is being marketed as such to our partners.

This is exactly what is wrong. It is practically impossible for the F-35 to be number 2 in the world simply because it isn't designed for the role of air superiority. The same as how the F-16 is not the second best fighter in the world for its generation.

This marketing gimmick is based on a complete lie. The F-35 barely even manages to cross the transonic region and then takes forever to go supersonic. That's not an air superiority fighter. A Rafale with 8 tonnes of payload can manage much tighter turns than a F-35 with just internal load. Rafale is cleared for 5.5G sustained turns with 3 2000L tanks, 6 AASMs and 4 missiles. A clean F-35A barely manages 4.6G, at least that's the program goal today. A Typhoon loaded with 8 missiles can climb faster and higher than a clean F-35 anyday of the week. A Su-35 can manage far greater acceleration than the F-35 at any altitude. The Su-35 goes 300 Knots to 700 knots with 50% fuel and 1000 m altitude in 22 seconds. While Su-35 takes 8 seconds to cross the transonic regime, the F-35A itself has its original time in the transonic regime extended by 8 more seconds. The F-35C's time was extended by 43 seconds.

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The F-35B had its sustained g's cut from five to 4.5 g's, while the US Navy variant had its turn performance truncated from 5.1 to five sustained g's. Acceleration times from Mach 0.8 to Mach 1.2 were extended by eight seconds, 16 seconds and 43 seconds for the A, B and C-models respectively. The baseline standard used for the comparison was a clean Lockheed F-16 Block 50 with two wingtip Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAMs.

Even if the F-35 had far superior electronics, which it actually does not, the F-35 will be hard pressed to perform in the air superiority role.

 

[Air Force Brat]

This is exactly what is wrong. It is practically impossible for the F-35 to be number 2 in the world simply because it isn't designed for the role of air superiority. The same as how the F-16 is not the second best fighter in the world for its generation.

This marketing gimmick is based on a complete lie. The F-35 barely even manages to cross the transonic region and then takes forever to go supersonic. That's not an air superiority fighter. A Rafale with 8 tonnes of payload can manage much tighter turns than a F-35 with just internal load. Rafale is cleared for 5.5G sustained turns with 3 2000L tanks, 6 AASMs and 4 missiles. A clean F-35A barely manages 4.6G, at least that's the program goal today. A Typhoon loaded with 8 missiles can climb faster and higher than a clean F-35 anyday of the week. A Su-35 can manage far greater acceleration than the F-35 at any altitude. The Su-35 goes 300 Knots to 700 knots with 50% fuel and 1000 m altitude in 22 seconds. While Su-35 takes 8 seconds to cross the transonic regime, the F-35A itself has its original time in the transonic regime extended by 8 more seconds. The F-35C's time was extended by 43 seconds.

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Even if the F-35 had far superior electronics, which it actually does not, the F-35 will be hard pressed to perform in the air superiority role.

Actually a clean F-35A has been to 9.9 gs positive, instantaneous turn rate, it will more than hold its own, and its avionics are far superior to anything else on the planet, as of now there are 110+ F-35s many of them coded operational rather than test, besides TP also stated that when operated as it is intended that it likely is #2 behind the Raptor. and you really ought to quit calling others liars, its really not cool, and its bad manners.

The Rafale and Su-35 are both very fine aircraft, and kinemetically they are outstanding, but they are not fifth generations aircraft, and the Rafale is certainly not superior to the F-35 in avionics or situational awareness no matter how many time you say it?

 

[A Bar Brother]

I think you really ought to read TPs post bar brother, he knows what he is talking about, and you really ought to be ashamed of calling Air Marshall Brown a liar when he states that the F-35 is 10 to 20 years ahead of PAK-FA and J-20, his credibility is far in excess of the bar brother, and he does have access to "all" the data, not just sales brochures and pixie dust! besides that's just NOT classy, and the Sino Defense has lots of class!

Apparently Air Marshal Brown has more information than the VVS and IAF about the PAKFA and the PLAAF about the J-20. No he doesn't have access to "all" the data. The only ones closest to having "all" the data would be the IAF. Out of all 4 air forces, USAF, VVS, IAF and RAAF, only IAF has access to eastern and western technology. And the IAF statements are not agenda driven. You see, Russia has to find buyers for the PAKFA, US has to find buyers for the F-35 and Australia has to find support from taxpayers to buy the F-35. All three countries have an agenda. IAF does not have to sway the taxpayers to its side to buy anything, hence they don't make propaganda statements.

Out of all 4 countries, only India has seen even true "brochure" details about both the F-35 and the PAKFA. The Australian Air Marshal wouldn't even be privy to the brochure details about the PAKFA.

Just like the west have people saying things like the F-35 is the best, the east also has equally high ranking people saying the stuff they make is the best. The difference is you are willing to fall for propaganda, I'm not.

 

[A Bar Brother]

and you really ought to quit calling others liars, its really not cool, and its bad manners.

So I should call my country's officials liars then, when they say the jet they are working on will be the most advanced in the world?

The Rafale and Su-35 are both very fine aircraft, and kinemetically they are outstanding, but they are not fifth generations aircraft, and the Rafale is certainly not superior to the F-35 in avionics or situational awareness no matter how many time you say it?

You are probably in touch with technical officers in your air force. How about asking them if in case the Rafale comes equipped with active cancellation around the same time as the F-35 is operational in 2021, will the F-35 be able to stand up to it?

As for avionics and other aspects, we can talk about it as and when more information is released. However from whatever information on avionics the French have released for the Rafale, the F-35 has not even been planned with such things.