F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

4Tran

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't think the statistics bare that out. There are also examples like the F-14 that completely throw a wrench in such claims.
The F-14 is proof that the F-16 is better off with 1 good engine than the Tomcat was with 2 poor engines.
I think that it really depends on how you're planning to use the plane. The USN would much prefer that its carrier based aircraft have two engines, hence it doesn't seem to like the F-35 all that much.

From the limited research I've done the price escalation is from inflation, currency fluctuations and infrastructure costs (which have been put off again and again) and would affect any other aircraft Canada purchased as well.
Every Time Canada has decided to try and save a penny on F-35 they lose a pound later; its uncanny. Australia has replaced their F-18s, sold some old F-18s to Canada, and completed purchase on 72 F-35s. meanwhile Canada bought old Australian F-18s, paid to upgrade more CF-18s and is watching prices skyrocket after finally purchaseing 16 F-35s and has not yet had a single delivery.
I wonder if there is a lesson there...
just kidding, Canada is once again reviewing the F-35 decision, just like they have been doing the last 15 years straight.
its a complete self-inflicted fiasco that makes the "Cadillac helicopters" silliness look like child's play.
It's not all bad. If Canada buys the F-35 later then they might get the Block 4 models which should be significantly better than the older ones. Besides, the purchase price of the F-35 is probably going to be a lot smaller than its lifetime operating cost as that's how Lockheed Martin will be getting most of their money.

Canada's fighter situation is compounded by the F-35 not being a particularly good fit to begin with. Canada's primary need to patrol it's super long Arctic coast. And for that purpose, the ideal fighter is a twin-engine plane with a very long range. Stealth and strike capabilities are nice to have, but not particularly important requirements. The problem is that there aren't all that many fighters on the market that fits the bill. The Gripen only has one engine, the Rafale is too expensive, and buying Typhoons at this time doesn't seem like a great idea. I'd joke and say that Canada should look into the J-16 and J-35, but NORAD integration is necessary so even those planes won't work.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
I think that it really depends on how you're planning to use the plane. The USN would much prefer that its carrier based aircraft have two engines, hence it doesn't seem to like the F-35 all that much.


It's not all bad. If Canada buys the F-35 later then they might get the Block 4 models which should be significantly better than the older ones. Besides, the purchase price of the F-35 is probably going to be a lot smaller than its lifetime operating cost as that's how Lockheed Martin will be getting most of their money.

Canada's fighter situation is compounded by the F-35 not being a particularly good fit to begin with. Canada's primary need to patrol it's super long Arctic coast. And for that purpose, the ideal fighter is a twin-engine plane with a very long range. Stealth and strike capabilities are nice to have, but not particularly important requirements. The problem is that there aren't all that many fighters on the market that fits the bill. The Gripen only has one engine, the Rafale is too expensive, and buying Typhoons at this time doesn't seem like a great idea. I'd joke and say that Canada should look into the J-16 and J-35, but NORAD integration is necessary so even those planes won't work.

F-35 is another waste of money. Who wants to bomb Canada? Any country other than the US that might violate our airspace is doing it to get to the US. Again, the Americans have to defend our airspace regardless.
 

Michael_Scott

New Member
Registered Member
I think that it really depends on how you're planning to use the plane. The USN would much prefer that its carrier based aircraft have two engines, hence it doesn't seem to like the F-35 all that much.

The navy was using the A-7 up into the 1990s, and it was even a frontline asset. the USAF didn't bother to send A-7s to the 1991 war, but for the US navy the single engine aircraft was a workhorse until its retirement. The JSF program dates back the late 1990s.
its not really a matter of engines as it is other factors.
This is the same situation as Canada. The F-18 was chosen over the F-16 because the F-18 had an already extant AIM-7 BVR capability. Something the F-16 got later Selling "two engines for safety" was more of a public relations idea floated after the selection to get the public on board.
The fact that such things are still cited today is proof of the effectiveness. :)

It's not all bad. If Canada buys the F-35 later then they might get the Block 4 models which should be significantly better than the older ones. Besides, the purchase price of the F-35 is probably going to be a lot smaller than its lifetime operating cost as that's how Lockheed Martin will be getting most of their money.

Canada's fighter situation is compounded by the F-35 not being a particularly good fit to begin with. Canada's primary need to patrol it's super long Arctic coast. And for that purpose, the ideal fighter is a twin-engine plane with a very long range. Stealth and strike capabilities are nice to have, but not particularly important requirements. The problem is that there aren't all that many fighters on the market that fits the bill. The Gripen only has one engine, the Rafale is too expensive, and buying Typhoons at this time doesn't seem like a great idea. I'd joke and say that Canada should look into the J-16 and J-35, but NORAD integration is necessary so even those planes won't work.

A lot of this is the stereotypical things that have been circulating the internet for years. so for clarity:
Stealth is a becoming an entry level need. its a key part of aircraft survivability in the same way that chaff and flare and integral jammers are a natural thing for the last generation of aircraft. this is like saying Canada has no need for a 4th generation aircraft because who needs to dogfight? Voodoos are fast enough. The F-18 was canada's way of getting the 4th generation capabilities. IE a Modern Aircraft at the time. what they did not do was say "ah, you don't need all that new fangled sorcery, you have the Americans right there!"


Strike: Canada has not actually shot down another aircraft since the Korean war, but its been on plenty of strike missions most of them overseas as a part of a coalition. This is a constant "red herring" People treat Canada as if its Switzerland, and who wants to bomb Switzerland? ze Germans!? But meanwhile Canada has bombed Iraq, Libya, Syria, Kosovo just to name some of the top of my head. Canada also deployed to Eastern Europe in Response to Russian moves in 2014.

The F-35 is a good fit for Canada because its going to be the primary fighter of its closest ally. one thing the CF-18 did was made things complex because the CF-18 is not a part of the USAF which is in reality Canada's closest partner. The F-15EX is one option and probably better than the super hornet the F-15EX fits your criteria, but the expense rules it out. Just like in the old days before they picked the CF-18. and speaking of which the CF-18s are not interceptors either. they are relatively short-ranged strike fighters. The F-35 outranges them already.

The next most viable option is the Super Hornet but we run into the same issues. its not a USAF aircraft, production is coming to a close, the USN is already working on a replacement, and the last time Canada looked into its "interim purchase" of the Super Hornet they found out it was estimated (to be fair a high estimate) to cost more than the F-35 program.

Canada has been evaluating and reevaluating for over 20 years and the result is always "F-35" so at one point it might just be time to finally do it. I thought we had finally reached that point but once again the Canadians are going wobbly...

I'm not trying to sound like a "know-it-all" but most people have no idea the of the actual criteria the RCAF is looking at (this is understandable, a lot of it is classified and the RCAF has been under strict order to not speak about a lot it). many people go off things they read on the internet that sound logical, and so we get posts like "What Canada needs is..." and its a bunch of things the RCAF or other aspects of the government and industry has no actual interest in. Its a failure in communications.

you are absolutely correct that NORAD integration is critical along with some other things you mentioned. I am just addressing the things that I believe are not as accurate.
 

4Tran

Junior Member
Registered Member
The navy was using the A-7 up into the 1990s, and it was even a frontline asset. the USAF didn't bother to send A-7s to the 1991 war, but for the US navy the single engine aircraft was a workhorse until its retirement. The JSF program dates back the late 1990s.
its not really a matter of engines as it is other factors.
This is the same situation as Canada. The F-18 was chosen over the F-16 because the F-18 had an already extant AIM-7 BVR capability. Something the F-16 got later Selling "two engines for safety" was more of a public relations idea floated after the selection to get the public on board.
The fact that such things are still cited today is proof of the effectiveness. :)
What was once true in the '80s might not be true any more. For instance, the USN would never accept a carrier plane with intakes underneath the fuselage any more.

Strike: Canada has not actually shot down another aircraft since the Korean war, but its been on plenty of strike missions most of them overseas as a part of a coalition. This is a constant "red herring" People treat Canada as if its Switzerland, and who wants to bomb Switzerland? ze Germans!? But meanwhile Canada has bombed Iraq, Libya, Syria, Kosovo just to name some of the top of my head. Canada also deployed to Eastern Europe in Response to Russian moves in 2014.
For every strike mission that Canada has flown in the last 20 years, it has probably flown a thousand patrol sorties. The importance of these use cases aren't comparable.

I agree that the F-35 is going to be Canada's choice in the future, but that's not because the F-35 is particularly suitable. It's because there just aren't many good alternatives. Maybe if the KF-21 and Kaan were viable choices they'd get a look, but these planes won't be available any time soon.
 

Michael_Scott

New Member
Registered Member
Who wants to bomb Canada? Any country other than the US that might violate our airspace is doing it to get to the US. Again, the Americans have to defend our airspace regardless.

Stephanie Carvin illustrates Canada’s larger procurement dilemma:

Canada is constrained by the requirement that its military be interoperable with its key allies. Being too small to chart its own technological course, yet large enough where its allies expect a substantial contribution to allied and coalition operations, Canada’s options are frequently restricted: it can only procure certain equipment, from certain countries that are interoperable with the partners it is likely to work with in an alliance and/or coalition. In this sense, Canada’s decision to procure technology is also driven by the need to work with its allies effectively.


this is the difference in expectations and the gap of public perception. Canada being a protector of its own airspace in which the US can simply do that job anyway so why bother? Vs the very real fact that CF-18s and the Canadian military deploy outside Canada's borders because they are involved in coalition warfare alongside the west via the UN, NATO, NORAD.
 

Michael_Scott

New Member
Registered Member
What was once true in the '80s might not be true any more. For instance, the USN would never accept a carrier plane with intakes underneath the fuselage any more.

a40omr.jpg


The intakes have nothing to do with anything and the Navy already accepted the F-35 and the F-18 above so I don't know how any of that is even relevant even if it was true and the picture above shows that it is not.

For every strike mission that Canada has flown in the last 20 years, it has probably flown a thousand patrol sorties. The importance of these use cases aren't comparable.
the strike missions are where the combat takes place, so I would agree they are not comparable to peacetime sorties in the far north. what's the point of buying an aircraft that can fly patrols but can't survive in the kind of war that Canada has engaged in the last 30 years?
speaking of the 1000 to 1 sortie Ratio, this is again putting the stress on NORAD compatibility above all else and the USAF doesn't fly F-18s of any type.
as I said in the last post. There is a giant gap between what people think Canada needs, versus how Canada actually operates. in 1999 CF-18s did not have the latest encryption technology for the NATO bombing campaign and were almost sent home because of it.
Strike missions may be the miniority of flying, but it is also the most critical and the entire reason the aircraft exist--war.
warplanes are built to perform in combat, not for peacetime efficiency
This is like an ejection seat and parachute. Thousands of sorties can be flown without ever needing the ejection seat and parachute, but when they are needed in that very slim amount of times it is vital that they work.


I agree that the F-35 is going to be Canada's choice in the future, but that's not because the F-35 is particularly suitable.
The F-35 is not only the most suitable by Canada's own metrics, but the fact that Canada is a JSF partner also means that is is the only aircraft avaliable that has had direct canadian involvement in its development.
I know that natural rebuttal to this will be "Well not much involvement" or "not enough involvement!" but the fact remains it is the only available option with direct canadian input. We can debate about how much or how little, but there is nothing else. not Rafale, not F-15, not F-18 not KF-21.
in keeping with the above we hear again and again that Canada despite having requirements that only F-35 meets, despite being F-35 partners, despite having input on the actual F-35 development, that the F-35 is still not a good fit, and they would be better off with something they had no say in with development, won't work as well with partners and alliances, and does not meet requirements or fulfill the same amount of industrial participation.

It's because there just aren't many good alternatives. Maybe if the KF-21 and Kaan were viable choices they'd get a look, but these planes won't be available any time soon.
There are no real alternatives at all actually. Which is kind of the point. Its as if someone bet Canada "try and find something better than the F-35" and Canada said "i'll take that Bet!" and here we are decades and unnecessary billions later, multiple evaluations and an entire competition, even an attempted alternative buy of the Super Hornet and the F-35 always comes up as the most suitable. every time. This is why Canada is so useful as a study. its as if they did everything they could to alter reality, and yet had to keep returning to it despite politics and an attempted to create an alternative world.
Why is there such confusion? because most people don't understand what the requirements are and what the RCAF actually does. if they did this would all be academic.
we have people asking "why does canada need a strike aircraft?" apparently unaware that most Canadian combat has been strike missions.
if people can't tell the difference between a screw driver and a hammer There is always going to be conflicted opinions. the RCAF is going one way based on its knowledge and experience, the public the other based on its ignorance and lack of experience.
One way to change the question would go as follows "The F-35 is the most suitable to Canada currently. But are the requirements and suitability faulty?"
one of the more awkward things that came up with the latest competition, was that the F-35 was the only aircraft that met the requirements, which meant Canada had to actually LOWER the standards and requirements for anyone to even compete. Its not a good sign when requirements have to be lowered for anyone to compete with the F-35 in Canada. That tells the truth right there. Everything had to relaxed: compatibility, radar signature etc. Even then the final competitors were both single engine aircraft, and the Gripen E is hardly a long ranged interceptor...
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Stephanie Carvin illustrates Canada’s larger procurement dilemma:

Canada is constrained by the requirement that its military be interoperable with its key allies. Being too small to chart its own technological course, yet large enough where its allies expect a substantial contribution to allied and coalition operations, Canada’s options are frequently restricted: it can only procure certain equipment, from certain countries that are interoperable with the partners it is likely to work with in an alliance and/or coalition. In this sense, Canada’s decision to procure technology is also driven by the need to work with its allies effectively.

this is the difference in expectations and the gap of public perception. Canada being a protector of its own airspace in which the US can simply do that job anyway so why bother? Vs the very real fact that CF-18s and the Canadian military deploy outside Canada's borders because they are involved in coalition warfare alongside the west via the UN, NATO, NORAD.
Maybe we should ask WTF we should be involved militarily outside of our country.
 

4Tran

Junior Member
Registered Member
a40omr.jpg


The intakes have nothing to do with anything and the Navy already accepted the F-35 and the F-18 above so I don't know how any of that is even relevant even if it was true and the picture above shows that it is not.
The intakes on this plane are to the side of the fuselage.

the strike missions are where the combat takes place, so I would agree they are not comparable to peacetime sorties in the far north. what's the point of buying an aircraft that can fly patrols but can't survive in the kind of war that Canada has engaged in the last 30 years?
speaking of the 1000 to 1 sortie Ratio, this is again putting the stress on NORAD compatibility above all else and the USAF doesn't fly F-18s of any type.
as I said in the last post. There is a giant gap between what people think Canada needs, versus how Canada actually operates. in 1999 CF-18s did not have the latest encryption technology for the NATO bombing campaign and were almost sent home because of it.
Strike missions may be the miniority of flying, but it is also the most critical and the entire reason the aircraft exist--war.
warplanes are built to perform in combat, not for peacetime efficiency
This is like an ejection seat and parachute. Thousands of sorties can be flown without ever needing the ejection seat and parachute, but when they are needed in that very slim amount of times it is vital that they work.
Strike capabilities are nice things to have, but are not necessary for the RCAF. Any attacks they've made over the last couple of decades are only of symbolic value, and any old plane could do the job. In comparison, the patrol mission is of absolutely importance. It's not a matter of peacetime vs. wartime; it's a matter of what's necessary and what isn't.

Maybe we should ask WTF we should be involved militarily outside of our country.
I feel that this is a question a lot more countries should be asking. Australia probably should go first.
 

CaribouTruth

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Dramatic F-35 Crash At Alaskan Air Base Caused By Iced-Up Landing Gear​

Ice in the F-35's landing gear led the jet's flight computer to think it was on the ground when it wasn't.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

The article title really undersells what happened, the hydraulics were contaminated by water, some oil barrel samples were 33% water. Another F-35 had similar hydraulic issues before this accident. Improper tracking, recordkeeping and storage seemed to be another big issue.

What I'm particularly baffled by is that you can visually tell something isn't right when the oil you're using is 1/3rd water.

Take a look at these samples from the plane with a similar previous issue that didn't crash on the left. Absurd.
1756281782549.png
1756282151255.png


You can read the report summary here;
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SanWenYu

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Dramatic F-35 Crash At Alaskan Air Base Caused By Iced-Up Landing Gear​

Ice in the F-35's landing gear led the jet's flight computer to think it was on the ground when it wasn't.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

The article title really undersells what happened, the hydraulics were contaminated by water, some oil barrel samples were 33% water. Another F-35 had similar hydraulic issues before this accident. Improper tracking, recordkeeping and storage seemed to be another big issue.

What I'm particularly baffled by is that you can visually tell something isn't right when the oil you're using is 1/3rd water.

Take a look at these samples from the plane with a similar previous issue that didn't crash on the left. Absurd.
View attachment 159383
View attachment 159384


You can read the report summary here;
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Hmm, sounds awful familiar to the story of replacing rocket fuel with water.
 
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