Disgusting, AVIC I plans to take shortcut again on big Plane Project

SteelBird said:

An interesting question: since China has reverse engineer so many stuff in the past, can't it reverse engineer an American engine and make its own version?

Click to expand...

The PW PurePower 1000G is a totally new engine design and concept. It's a geared turbofan engine and there are big risks with designing such a engine. PW is still not complete with their work on the design, and it can be said that if the technology pans out, it would be revolutionary in terms of engine design.

Nothing wrong with Western engines if it's commercial plane, more economical.

Its not like building an engine is all that matters for designing a plane... by building the airframe AVIC 1 will gain a great deal of experience too.

It is better for China to obtain a new revolutionary engine design then start out from scratch, since now the first Chinese engine to be designed will also incorporate that revolutionary design. Otherwise it could take the Chinese 10-20 years to catch up.

FriedRiceNSpice said:

Its not like building an engine is all that matters for designing a plane... by building the airframe AVIC 1 will gain a great deal of experience too.

It is better for China to obtain a new revolutionary engine design then start out from scratch, since now the first Chinese engine to be designed will also incorporate that revolutionary design. Otherwise it could take the Chinese 10-20 years to catch up.

Click to expand...

If no license production at the minimum, then no deal!

FAA? Only if plane is flying out of the country.
If they have to use western engine, the only salvation from that would be able to license produce those engine,and fly control system. otherwise if the blackbox approach, then AVIC I will learn absolute nothing about the core technology.

Such a letdown from initial drumming up of doing something great on their own , only to find out all they doing is to build the skin.

Click to expand...

How is it not going to fly out of the country? The Chinese carriers are not that backward. And I'm pretty sure they are aiming to sell it worldwide.

Add to that, all these suppliers have existing sales team and support staff already set up worldwide. So, that's going to make it even easier for AVIC1 to manage the aftersale stuff. As for license produce, they are already doing that for CF-34A. Depending on how advanced the engine is, they might be able to license produce CFM-56 in the future. A lot of it is dependent on their own large bypass engine. If it only reaches D-30KP3 level, then it's not going to give China much level. But if it's better than PS-90A and reaches the reliability, efficiency of CFM-56-7 series. Then, we have a different story.

Pointblank said:

The PW PurePower 1000G is a totally new engine design and concept. It's a geared turbofan engine and there are big risks with designing such a engine. PW is still not complete with their work on the design, and it can be said that if the technology pans out, it would be revolutionary in terms of engine design.

Click to expand...

well, even aside for GTF, which is supposedly going to lead an entire new generation of commercial engine, most turbofan engines are simply too difficult to copy. China doesn't have the blueprint, it doesn't have the tools needed to take apart and put the engine back together. Look at how long it took them to figure out su-27 and they actually got ToT for that.

FriedRiceNSpice said:

Its not like building an engine is all that matters for designing a plane... by building the airframe AVIC 1 will gain a great deal of experience too.

It is better for China to obtain a new revolutionary engine design then start out from scratch, since now the first Chinese engine to be designed will also incorporate that revolutionary design. Otherwise it could take the Chinese 10-20 years to catch up.

Click to expand...

yeah, hopefully, I'm not holding breathe though.

A few interesting tidbits:



"Indeed, over the next 20 years, Boeing has forecast that air carriers worldwide will require 28,600 commercial aircraft with a value of $2.8 trillion. The Boeing forecast is generally viewed as the world’s best analysis of the global market for commercial airliners and cargo aircraft. And this forecast isn’t limited to jumbo-sized passenger jets: It includes short-range connector planes, regional jets, cargo planes and the jumbos."

"China, alone, will require 3,400 new airplanes worth about $340 billion over the next 20 years, Boeing projected in its recent market forecast. That works out to sales of about $17 billion annually over the next two decades. About 2,650 of those commercial airplanes will be actual airliners, Airbus projected in a forecast of its own. Up to now, Chinese airlines have been placing huge orders with Boeing and Airbus to modernize their air fleets and close the customer-service gap on their foreign competitors."

========================

Currently the world's jumbo jet market (civilian) is mostly cornered by Boeing and Airbus. Western aviation industry is willing to work with other countries in building lesser "regional jets" but would not welcome effective competition in their bread and butter business (Boeing 7x7, Airbus A3x0).

China needs to import engine technology, simply because the domestic industry isn't up to task yet. Look in PLAN ships, lots of European imported gas turbines there.

You mean _licensed made_ Ukrainian gas turbines. They also use a lot of French and German _licensed made_ diesel engines from MAN and Pielstik.

i think of it this way: better to use foreign technology to learn how to build civilian planes first. a bad engine can mean a lot of lives.

well it not really that plain simple, China won't supply nations with aircrafts that they themselves aren't satisfied and proven safe to be airworthy. China wants to be another company that can rival the Boeing VS Airbus saga. People around the world only really have 2 choices so not much competition. Of course you got the Russian Ilyushin (i think) but they're sales dont fair up well. And their record of flight has proven to be as safe and efficient as the other 2. So China wants to able to build their own tools, and stop taking the easy way out and slacking of on their domestic sector. Credit goes to the EU-US Arms Embargo, this forced China to go more domestic. If it weren't on the embargo I would see China as weakier more foreign equipment relied country with minimal technology knowledge and industry.

adeptitus said:

A few interesting tidbits:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"Indeed, over the next 20 years, Boeing has forecast that air carriers worldwide will require 28,600 commercial aircraft with a value of $2.8 trillion. The Boeing forecast is generally viewed as the world’s best analysis of the global market for commercial airliners and cargo aircraft. And this forecast isn’t limited to jumbo-sized passenger jets: It includes short-range connector planes, regional jets, cargo planes and the jumbos."

"China, alone, will require 3,400 new airplanes worth about $340 billion over the next 20 years, Boeing projected in its recent market forecast. That works out to sales of about $17 billion annually over the next two decades. About 2,650 of those commercial airplanes will be actual airliners, Airbus projected in a forecast of its own. Up to now, Chinese airlines have been placing huge orders with Boeing and Airbus to modernize their air fleets and close the customer-service gap on their foreign competitors."

========================

Currently the world's jumbo jet market (civilian) is mostly cornered by Boeing and Airbus. Western aviation industry is willing to work with other countries in building lesser "regional jets" but would not welcome effective competition in their bread and butter business (Boeing 7x7, Airbus A3x0).

China needs to import engine technology, simply because the domestic industry isn't up to task yet. Look in PLAN ships, lots of European imported gas turbines there.

Click to expand...

it's not as big of a problem as you make it out to be.
Brazil don't have a gas turbine industry and yet it makes very decent and competitive jets on the small to mid range sizes.

There is absolutely no reason why RR won't be able to provide and custom tailor engines for the Chinese large jet.