Discussing Biden's Potential China Policy

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Phead128

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America Hyperpower Hegemony is fucked not by rise of multipolarity, but Ethnic minorities becoming the majority in the country. We people of color don't want to continue Old White Fart's dream of military imperialism when we can't even deal with basic shit like healthcare reform, minimum wage, and racial justice at home. Fucking Xinjiang? Go deal with the crisis at home before trying to save the world.
 

Topazchen

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I wouldn't say America is a feudal oligarchy. It has been a liberal democracy since 1965. However, since Reagan's de-regulation of corporations and Wall Street, America is increasingly behaving like a plutocracy. The Federal Government's ability to set the rules of the game has becoming increasingly limited. Ultimately, it is the Reaganites who set America on track to become what it is today.
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ansy1968

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@Topazchen bro I may receive some flak BUT if not for Xi China may easily fell to that category. During Jiang time people in power had amass great wealth and collaborated with businessman for profit, these led to many protest. Hu wanted to address those issues but was impeded by the elite establishment. Luckily for China its elite elders hold considerable influence, they want their sacrifice to be remembered and maintain the flame of Spirit of Yanan.
 

solarz

Brigadier
@Topazchen bro I may receive some flak BUT if not for Xi China may easily fell to that category. During Jiang time people in power had amass great wealth and collaborated with businessman for profit, these led to many protest. Hu wanted to address those issues but was impeded by the elite establishment. Luckily for China its elite elders hold considerable influence, they want their sacrifice to be remembered and maintain the flame of Spirit of Yanan.

That's exactly what the US was hoping would happen, and was working so hard at making happen throughout the 90's and 00's.

However, I wouldn't put all the credit on Xi. There was a severe power struggle before Xi's ascension. Both Bo Xilai and Zhou Yongkang were taken out. Bo was Xi's rival for the top party position, and Zhou was Bo's mentor, so it shows how big of a deal that was. Zhou was the security czar, and I don't think it was a coincidence that shortly after Zhou was removed, the CIA network in China was dismantled. Add to that the incident where Bo's bodyguard sought refuge in the American consulate, it shows that both Bo and Zhou, and probably a good part of the CPC was under American influence.

In the end, the CPC stayed true to Deng's vision, which was that the goal of the economic reforms was to build a socialist nation.
 

ansy1968

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That's exactly what the US was hoping would happen, and was working so hard at making happen throughout the 90's and 00's.

However, I wouldn't put all the credit on Xi. There was a severe power struggle before Xi's ascension. Both Bo Xilai and Zhou Yongkang were taken out. Bo was Xi's rival for the top party position, and Zhou was Bo's mentor, so it shows how big of a deal that was. Zhou was the security czar, and I don't think it was a coincidence that shortly after Zhou was removed, the CIA network in China was dismantled. Add to that the incident where Bo's bodyguard sought refuge in the American consulate, it shows that both Bo and Zhou, and probably a good part of the CPC was under American influence.

In the end, the CPC stayed true to Deng's vision, which was that the goal of the economic reforms was to build a socialist nation.
@solarz So true and those elders had tip the balance in favor Xi and he didn't disappointed, He and his father who had suffered and experience the worst from Cultural revolution maybe a factor in his selection, his father comrade in arms may feel remorse and want to undo the wrong and put their fate in Xi knowing that he will put forward his father and party vision.
 

ChongqingHotPot92

Junior Member
Registered Member
That's exactly what the US was hoping would happen, and was working so hard at making happen throughout the 90's and 00's.

However, I wouldn't put all the credit on Xi. There was a severe power struggle before Xi's ascension. Both Bo Xilai and Zhou Yongkang were taken out. Bo was Xi's rival for the top party position, and Zhou was Bo's mentor, so it shows how big of a deal that was. Zhou was the security czar, and I don't think it was a coincidence that shortly after Zhou was removed, the CIA network in China was dismantled. Add to that the incident where Bo's bodyguard sought refuge in the American consulate, it shows that both Bo and Zhou, and probably a good part of the CPC was under American influence.

In the end, the CPC stayed true to Deng's vision, which was that the goal of the economic reforms was to build a socialist nation.
Well, ironically Xi is behaving exactly like Bo in Chongqing; a populist strongmen taking advantage of the wealth gap and its relevant social discontent to overturn existing power structure and use the mobilized majority to solidify the new strongman's position. Before Xi came to power, Jiang and his Three Represents ideology ruled the day, meaning wealthy businesses and their families (as well as cronies of corrupt officials) move their illicit wealth abroad and invest in Wall Street. In other words, the CCP itself became a parasite on its own people, as the Party elites became predatory and used the labour of the Chinese people to enrich themselves. When they gained enough wealth, they moved abroad, become Americans, and joined the Republican establishment in the US (think about why so many wealthy Chinese immigrants in the US support the GOP). Therefore, these corrupt elites could stand on two boats simultaneously 一脚踏两条船, meaning if the Party State could continue to enrich them, they would stay in China (but their families in the US), but if they face anti-corruption charges or other forms of political struggle, they immediate become the loudest anti-CCP voice in the US. The most prominent example being Ling Jihua's family, especially his brother Ling Wancheng, who even stole the Second Artillery's launch code and handed it to the Americans.

It was under such kleptocratic background (1992-2013) that Bo emerged as a populist leader calling for change. Unfortunately, this guy was too arrogant and outspoken, so Wen Jiaobao had him sacked. In fact, as you guys probably know, Wen's wife is also one of the most corrupt crony still not arrested (Xi cannot touch Wen's family because Wen is Xi's political ally during the struggle against Bo and Zhou). However, Xi realized that in order to solidify his own power base, he has to adopt Bo's populist position and overturn Jiang's power structure based on kleptocracy. It is also why you always hear rich Chinese who amassed wealth under Jiang and Hu-Wen years hate Xi so much. Xi is trying to reshuffle Jiang's political economy, while make China less dependent on the West. That is why everyone beside the majority of Chinese (mainly the poor and the lower middle class) hate Xi. As much as I think Xi is the best of the bad apples, a bad apple is still a bad apple, and I hope could alleviate corruption without killing entrepreneurship. Everything so far points to the fact that he is not against small to medium size private companies, but he surely points a gun to the heads of big CEOs to force them to pay for China's overall welfare.

Conclusion: don't think of things as back or white. Xi is a bad apple (and I dare to say that he could sometimes be a real a-hole when he limits freedom of speech), but what choice does the PRC really have? Another neoliberal who would return China to the days of the Warring States Period? Think about Putin for Russia.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
Well, ironically Xi is behaving exactly like Bo in Chongqing; a populist strongmen taking advantage of the wealth gap and its relevant social discontent to overturn existing power structure and use the mobilized majority to solidify the new strongman's position. Before Xi came to power, Jiang and his Three Represents ideology ruled the day, meaning wealthy businesses and their families (as well as cronies of corrupt officials) move their illicit wealth abroad and invest in Wall Street. In other words, the CCP itself became a parasite on its own people, as the Party elites became predatory and used the labour of the Chinese people to enrich themselves. When they gained enough wealth, they moved abroad, become Americans, and joined the Republican establishment in the US (think about why so many wealthy Chinese immigrants in the US support the GOP). Therefore, these corrupt elites could stand on two boats simultaneously 以脚踏两条船, meaning if the Party State could continue to enrich them, they would stay in China (but their families in the US), but if they face anti-corruption charges or other forms of political struggle, they immediate become the loudest anti-CCP voice in the US. The most prominent example being Ling Jihua's family, especially his brother Ling Wancheng, who even stole the Second Artillery's launch code and handed it to the Americans.

If you want to build Socialism, you have to have sufficient means of production, and the most efficient way of ramping up production is by adopting Capitalism.

All of the above you mentioned is just naked Capitalism, without any trappings of fake democracy to placate the masses. It's inevitable, necessary even, if you want to achieve 100 years of economic development in three decades.

The beauty of CPC's play is that they made use of the American strategy to subvert them, and subverted it to turn China into a powerhouse all the while staying firmly at the helm.

Xi's greatness lies in the fact that he does his job, and let's other people do theirs. He didn't immediately jump into the fray on HK and Wuhan, which actual strongmen would do since they have a need to appear in charge. Instead, he let relevant authorities and organizations take care of the issue, and took charge of the guiding principles.

On HK, he quietly reaffirmed his support for Carrie Lam even though *everyone* was hating on her at the time: the insurgents for her being a symbol of Beijing authority, and the patriots for her not doing enough to quell the riots. A strongman looking for populist support would have sacked Lam and installed a "tough guy" in her place, maybe even sent in the troops. Instead, Xi let the HK authorities do their job, all the while quietly cutting off foreign funding for the insurgents before striking the finishing blow with the NSL.

On COVID, he let health officials such as Zhong Nanshan take the spotlight. Even as the PLA was pouring into Wuhan and the Huoshenshan hospital was being built in 10 days, Xi quietly stayed in the background. Officials who screwed up in the pandemic response, however, were quickly sacked and replaced. Discipline was extraordinarily tight during the pandemic response, and this led to unwavering public support for the government's lockdown measures. In contrast, just look at the American response: Trump repeatedly contradicting Fauci and making nonsense claims, trying to pin the failures of pandemic response on his political opponents. If you're looking for strongman politics, this is the textbook example.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Well, ironically Xi is behaving exactly like Bo in Chongqing; a populist strongmen taking advantage of the wealth gap and its relevant social discontent to overturn existing power structure and use the mobilized majority to solidify the new strongman's position. Before Xi came to power, Jiang and his Three Represents ideology ruled the day, meaning wealthy businesses and their families (as well as cronies of corrupt officials) move their illicit wealth abroad and invest in Wall Street. In other words, the CCP itself became a parasite on its own people, as the Party elites became predatory and used the labour of the Chinese people to enrich themselves. When they gained enough wealth, they moved abroad, become Americans, and joined the Republican establishment in the US (think about why so many wealthy Chinese immigrants in the US support the GOP). Therefore, these corrupt elites could stand on two boats simultaneously 一脚踏两条船, meaning if the Party State could continue to enrich them, they would stay in China (but their families in the US), but if they face anti-corruption charges or other forms of political struggle, they immediate become the loudest anti-CCP voice in the US. The most prominent example being Ling Jihua's family, especially his brother Ling Wancheng, who even stole the Second Artillery's launch code and handed it to the Americans.

It was under such kleptocratic background (1992-2013) that Bo emerged as a populist leader calling for change. Unfortunately, this guy was too arrogant and outspoken, so Wen Jiaobao had him sacked. In fact, as you guys probably know, Wen's wife is also one of the most corrupt crony still not arrested (Xi cannot touch Wen's family because Wen is Xi's political ally during the struggle against Bo and Zhou). However, Xi realized that in order to solidify his own power base, he has to adopt Bo's populist position and overturn Jiang's power structure based on kleptocracy. It is also why you always hear rich Chinese who amassed wealth under Jiang and Hu-Wen years hate Xi so much. Xi is trying to reshuffle Jiang's political economy, while make China less dependent on the West. That is why everyone beside the majority of Chinese (mainly the poor and the lower middle class) hate Xi. As much as I think Xi is the best of the bad apples, a bad apple is still a bad apple, and I hope could alleviate corruption without killing entrepreneurship. Everything so far points to the fact that he is not against small to medium size private companies, but he surely points a gun to the heads of big CEOs to force them to pay for China's overall welfare.

Conclusion: don't think of things as back or white. Xi is a bad apple (and I dare to say that he could sometimes be a real a-hole when he limits freedom of speech), but what choice does the PRC really have? Another neoliberal who would return China to the days of the Warring States Period? Think about Putin for Russia.
What has Xi enact that has put some limits on Freedom of Speech in comparison to say during Jiang Zemin's and Hu Jintao's reigns.
 

ChongqingHotPot92

Junior Member
Registered Member
What has Xi enact that has put some limits on Freedom of Speech in comparison to say during Jiang Zemin's and Hu Jintao's reigns.
Well, firstly, as much as Facebook, Youtube, and other Silicon valley giants aren't perfect, at least they weren't banned until later Hu-Wen periods (in 2008 after the Beijing Olympics). But again, I really don't much about such ban cuz Western media outlets are a-holes themselves. The important point here is that before 2014, you actually have real debates about what kind of political institutions China should adopt, and topics like Tiananmen, workers' rights, force demolitions, etc. aren't off limit on college campuses, as long as you don't try to start a protest. How, in almost every class room, be it undergraduate or graduate, you will have 1-2 students acting on behalf of the MPS to make sure that the professors do not even mention topics deemed sensitive. Students also spend lot more time nowadays (compared to when I was in college) studying Xi Jinping thought, which is arguably useless for their career advancement. In this sense, things are a lot more politicized now than when I was in college. This kind of unnecessary limit to academic freedom and forceful indoctrination of Xi's ideas is where I really have issue with this guy. Yet, I strongly agree with his wealth distribution, foreign policy (but can be smarter as well), military mobilization, etc. Overall, no one is perfect. If you want a more collectivist society, there are certain sacrifices you have to make. Sometimes, these sacrifices could be ridiculous, and you can only hope that they could eventually payoff.
 
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