Democracy vs Authoritarianism

IronsightSniper

Junior Member
Alls considered, you can say that. There's obviously the elephant in the room (drugs) but even considering that, Mexico has a lower homicide rate than the more "authoritarian" nation of Venezuela. If you want another direct (homicide) comparison, Japan v. China, Japan also has a lower homicide rate, and SoKo v.s. NoKo, SoKo also has a lower homicide rate than NoKo.
 

ABC78

Junior Member
Some food for thought "The Ogirins of Political Order"

The books charts the development of "the three components of a modern political order", which are, according to the book, a strong a capable state, rule of law to which the state is subordinate, and accountability of the government to its citizens. It compares the ways they developed in China, India, the Islamic world, and Europe, each of which developed these three aspects of political organization in different order and to different degrees.

To create a loyal administrative class for the state, some states took extreme measures to try and destroy family and clans in a variety of original ways. Clan ties were the first destroyed in Europe due to the introduction of a rule of law by the Catholic Church. England and Denmark developed via different paths the three essential aspects: A strong state, the rule of law, and mechanisms to hold the ruler accountable. These were then copied by other states with the similar backgrounds. By ignoring these backgrounds, we fail to understand why current attempts at state buildings in dissimilar countries all have hitherto failed to live up to expectations. States have been built with outside help, but with neither rule of law nor any accountability of those who govern.

[video]http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/TheOrigin[/video]
 

JsCh

Junior Member
I agree that it is not a or b. For me it is about security of rights, but others can see something similar as security of laws. We all want to be more than just sheep to a government with some capability to shape their decisions to benefit us and secure our important vitals like respected rights or law-obdience. These are seen as requirements for our ongoing success that is usually equated with success of the system we partake.
In representative democracy, majority rules. Right is a mechanism to protect individual/minority against majority abuse. Hence a somewhat stable balance between majority and individual/minority power ensue. The rule of law act as a clear guideline for all citizen to behave hence provide a relatively stable political and social environment.
You can base such a system on select distribution of favours and well-being at the expense of other humans. This is the Western Eurasian and African slavery tradition, last enacted on a grand scale by the animal-lover Hitler. He did create a giant sheme to restructure the world on older ideological templates of our past fitted to the creation of a new present and future that eventually failed. But it provided enough economic benefits to still convince many people all over Europe to long for that reported time of great personal benefits by grand public projects. The idea is not dead and it works simply by a credit based economic bubble with massive armament for robbing your neighbour state's bank vaults for continuing liquidity. The cold truth of the city and the states derived from these cities is that most things can be traded for economic benefits, but trading a few issues will backlash because within this set-up they are fences against human nature that otherwise destroys the communal system for personal gains. Democracy has and will always be a timocracy. Lobbyism is just one expression of that truth. As long as the established fences stand and there are pressures on the timocracy to earn via cooperation and not exploitation, people feel free and satisfied. Authoritarian systems have an easier route to exploitation and discontent due to perceived personal underachievement for they are quite capable to set up large scale very unfair external conditions. You get a revolution as soon as the system is rigged enough to deprieve very capable people of their chances - they fight back with all means necessary and if they need guns and bombs, so be it. Guess what, in no democracy exists a level playing field, but discontent is usually within tolerable levels and has a less destructive outlet for capable challengers. But they can fail due to corruption of leaders and representatives for effective status quo. Insert Chinese man-of-letters and scholar and you see the same pattern.
"select distribution of favours and well-being at the expense of other humans" will happen as long as there is a human society unless you believe in a communist utopia). The only difference is in degree. All you can do is to legislate to guard against over abuse and incentivize fairness/equality in accordance with consensus among the majority. This to guard against the losers to revolt against the system.
The authoritarian system is very quick and can quickly transform anything for good or bad. Democratic systems are best seen as institutionalized and quite lethargic with lots of friction if ever moving. The advantage of lethargy is that you don't screw up things yourself without having enough time to reliably predict and correct the course. Authoritarian forms have their benefits if rapid development, usually due to external influences, is required, but lack the safety net of the slower institutions. The longer you keep on such a dangerous fast track, the higher are the chances that it will fail due to leadership errors (human nature). More institutional systems can be dinosaurs (extinct) or crocodiles (same design since millions of years) and institutional designs don't require democracy, a seemingly open meritocracy like in ancient China can do the same service. Democracy as an institution tries to keep at bay special self-serving interest groups, but can fail on a large scale if you look at Greece.
An authoritarian system is comparatively efficient but not as stable as democratic system. Democratic system is more stable but it could also fail.

So, democratic system with majority rule/consensus, individual rights, rule of law, acceptable fairness/equality is a more stable system than authoritarian system.

I think chinese are well aware of all the advantages of the democratic system. And slowly, with more and more chinese visiting and staying in western country, with the occurrence of some recent revealing event, chinese also come to notice some of the pitfalls of democratic system. I think China is in no hurry and indeed might not even consider moving to a democratic system. China is a big ship, steering that ship in an about turn would be dangerous.
Some western people have this impression that China is a police state, and the chinese government rule with brutal force, without majority consensus from among the chinese people. And when they cannot reconcile the contradiction that chinese economic could have progress so much without cooperation from the people. Chinese would be accused of being brain wash automaton. The truth is that chinese individual is quite capable of critical thinking and thanks to the chinese culture, is very adept at balancing the interest of the individual and the nation, and among short and long term self-interest. And as evidently demonstrated throughout Chinese history, chinese people has shown no shortage of courage to start a protest or armed revolt against the establishment.
As for representative voice in the government, there is election of representative plus delegate to the people congress. Although in practice, the people congress is often being considered as a rubber stamp for the party. There are sign that the people congress is more and more independent as compare to before. How the people voice reach the government is different from the west, where you have representative, media and opinion poll that serve that function. In China, it is the government (executive rather that the legislative, in practice, separation of powers do not exist in China) that is expected to collect public opinion through various means. Chinese government generally would issue a request for public opinion before some project. It does not always work, as the recent protest/riot against a proposed chemical plant show.
Western media routinely report or insinuate chinese government abuse of human right of individual. It is true that chinese people do not enjoy the same legal right as in western society. But bear in mind that limitation of certain right are often done in order to maintain social/political stability. Chinese is a collective culture, individual are often expected to sacrify oneself for the good of many. The consensus on where the balance of majority versus individual/minority interest is not the same as western consensus.

"Rule by man" and "Rule by law" is a much discuss topic in China. The debate is not as obviously forgone concluded as westerner would expect. Chinese have no similar religion like the west, the concept of a single omnipotent benevolent God has never occur to chinese. Therefore chinese also do not believe in absolute/deterministic law. Chinese place ethics above law. Simply law abiding is not good enough. Chinese ethics are general principles that are open to interpretation with a basis of general public consensus. (Much like in the west if you substitute ethics with Christian principles). Therefore to provide justice as the public expect is not easy.

In the west, people are used to trusting the system. Even if some falls through the crack, it is general consider as acceptable and would believe that the system would somehow right itself. Chinese has no concept of such a system, leader is expected to intervene and do the right thing. Otherwise people would say to the leader what do I need you for then and mob rule is known to happen in china.

The chinese government is currently trying to implement a comprehensive legal system. To put ethics in writing is an impossible task. Both the government and the people need to learn and adjust. The current practice is to put emphasis on consultation/reconciliation before the legal process. How that is going to pan out, is yet to be seen.

There is much report on wealth inequality that exists between rural and urban china in the media. However, equality for chinese is not judge by wealth alone. In fact, chinese ethics has an undertone of hating the rich, and would consider judging worth by wealth alone unrefined. Chinese is an honor (face, pride, vanity, ego) base society. Being respected is important to chinese. What that mean is people expect government to have a face, someone that they can reason/argue with, equality under the eye of the law is not enough. China has party representative throughout all level of government that serves that purposes.
Owing to its communist tradition, china comes from a less stratified and more egalitarian society. Majority of party/government official came from or has worked in grass root level. Party/government official were carefully selected by a complicated process. Often by merits but favoritism like the so called princelings class do exist. Civil servant was selected by public examination and is hotly contested.
Economic opportunity is generally considered equal for all. Major complain being government official corruption/bias and an overly powerful public sector that suffocate the private sector. China has a big government that although respect free market but placing public service before it. Private property was respected as similar to the west.
Chinese citizen is free to follow any religion, although communist party member are not encouraged to be religious. Chinese government is also suspicious of foreign religious organization gaining a foothold in China.
The Chinese political system is a strange entity. By design, it is similar to most western democratic system. It has a legislative lower and upper house, a judicial and executive branch. It is also multi-parties. In practice, it is all CPC (Communist Party of China). And if you look closely, you would discover that the actual functioning of the government is just the same political system that has rule China for thousands of years with modern modification. I think this is hardly surprising; traditions for a culture that has exist for an extended period naturally are well adapted and resilient.
Chinese are pragmatic people, as long as it delivers, they do not care if it is called communism, authoritarian or socialism with Chinese characteristic. They do not care what form/grand overall design the system take. The system would be modified either officially/formally or even unofficially in accordance with how Deng Xiaoping put it “feeling the stone while crossing the river”. They would carefully study all form of government and pick and choose whatever is useful and design an experiment to adapt it to Chinese environment. For stability sack, the façade of “socialism with chinese characteristic” would be maintained. The immediate/primary goal is short and long term stability. The long term goal is Hu Jintao’s great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation.
I feel that it is a mistake to simply label China as authoritarian and apply analysis as such. Chinese political system is more than what meets the eye. China is an ancient civilization with long tradition. Chinese ethics and traditions is a very significant force that influences the political system in a bottom up way that is difficult for outsider to understand.
Since the 90s, putting stability above all is a stated policy of the Chinese government. As long as Chinese leaders keep both short and long term stability as a topmost priority, who can say that they will fail in that attempt. After all, they have manage to kept China growing at a fast pace without major economic and social upheaval (1989 is an exception) for almost thirty year. You cannot achieve that without sufficiently diligent.
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
Alls considered, you can say that. There's obviously the elephant in the room (drugs) but even considering that, Mexico has a lower homicide rate than the more "authoritarian" nation of Venezuela. If you want another direct (homicide) comparison, Japan v. China, Japan also has a lower homicide rate, and SoKo v.s. NoKo, SoKo also has a lower homicide rate than NoKo.

Ah, so you want to make the bad look good, by compare it to worse. How convenient that Venezuela is actually in the top 5 of homicide rate in the world, and everyone knows Japan is one of the most orderly society in the world. So in the spirit of picking data for fit your own argument, I like to do the same.

China homicide rate vs USA, China have much lower rate.

or rather, let me save you the trouble
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Majority of the top 10 nation by homicide rate have democratic system, <Insert them> compare with <authoritarian nation> anywhere down the list.

There you go, your argument is now invalid.
 

Kurt

Junior Member
Well just like in this thread people can talk but exercising it with action is all that matters. When you have someone using democracy and freedom as their excuse for whatever they do, they're more a criminal than any communist when they deny those things. Like I said, Hong Kong wasn't a chaotic country. If anything a perfect place to bring democracy. But the British didn't. Afraid of Mainland influence? Isn't that a democratic choice if that were the case? All that says is the British think they have the right to brainwash someone to serve their interests before they give democratic rights. It's not really true democracy if your overlords get to choose what choices you have and then call that democracy. Any of those excuses for why the British didn't give democracy to Hong Kong , the communists can say the same. The communists suppress democracy in order to prevent subversion. If we go by the rhetoric from the West criticizing China today, there's no excuse for denying democratic rights. If its universally recognized that the West are the only ones that are benevolent dictators and can deny democracy to those because it's to their own best interests, then why don't they just say that upfront instead of crying there's no excuse for denying democratic rights? People who contradict themselves do that because of self interests are at the heart of what motivates them. Why are hypocrites one of the lowest lifeforms? Because everyone hates a hypocrite. Even hypocrites hate hypocrites. Why? Because they know themselves at the heart of a hypocrite is serving themselves only.

That's what I'm talking about. It's all a lie. When push comes to shove the West will even deny democracy and rights if it favors their interests. What's the difference when the Chinese communists do that? They're just doing it to their own people. The West will keeps it for themselves but deny it for others. Hugo Chavez was elected in a democracy. The West doesn't accept it. The West supports Arab Spring revolutionaries in some countries but support the dictators against them in another. Look at Yemen. Throw Hong Kong and Singapore into context and that shows it's historical and not due to extraodinary circumstances.

Taiwan was in parallel an undemocratic police state along with communist China for most of its history. Democracy was only a recent event and only because it was a brilliant political maneuver that would force the West to give it contunual protection. You pretty much can't hide behind democracy and human rights if you're notoriously not practicing it yourselves. Hong Kong couldn't be handed over to Taiwan under the British own rule of law by the treaty they signed where they had to hand back to Mainland China not Taiwan who were already identifying themselves as not Chinese. There was story about a decade ago where people in the US sued Mainland China because of bonds sold in the US that they bought to help Chiang Kai Shek where they never got their money back plus interest. Well the logic that Hong Kong should've been handed over to Taiwan instead... should'nt all those people suing Mainland China for tens of billions of dollars sue Taiwan instead? Interesting how it always comes down to the geo-political self-serving interests of one party that get to decide over the rule of law. They don't mention that which means the rule of law which sounds better is just a lie to lure people. All a facade like I said.

People can tout how much they care about democracy and human rights all they want for themselves. When it comes to other people, that's the real litmus test on whether one believes in it or not.

Hong Kong's vibrancy came after the British knew they weren't getting an extension of their totalitarian no democracy rule. That tells even more that it all happened in the last six years. Meaning they suppressed Hong Kong's economic potential. Should the British be rewarded for something they supressed in the first place? Before that Hong Kong had no different of a reputation of low wage polluting factories making foreigners' products than right across the border on the mainland today.

Sure, all political systems are self-serving, including whatever the USA or China call themselves. "Democracy" is a very hollow word right now. Let's say people have choices to form a gouverning institution and via authoritarianism they are denied that option. HK was a colony. Colonies were about "educating small brown people how to behave civilized" (White man's burden - concept, still a driving force under new camouflage). You can't give them self-gouvernance because you need authority to push them somewhere else from their prior barbarian state. It's reflected in Cold War policy of the US that advised democracy for developed nations and military juntas for underdeveloped nations like South Korea for a long time or Chile. By now there's a change to exclusive installation of "democracy" because it is considered a systemic immunization against compatibility with Russian and Chinese concepts. Military dictators can too easily switch sides. Yes, definitely part of geopolitics and a widespread misuse of "democracy"-labels for such ends.

You miss however the point that real democracy can not be imposed, it must be earned. This is about people joining and getting their act together in creating a more functional system for their community. Not making this difference very much clouds the view on what democracy is and what not. It has always been a problem if democracies elect "strange/stupid", like Allende, Mosaddeq or Chavez from a geopolitical camp perspective. The concept that democracies won't fight each other gets violated and thus the whole systemic immunization issue. It's an untackled oxymoron of current geopolitical models that does not fit reality, but in many cases can still be perceived as negligible and due to some manipulation, creating an "unreal" democracy - Russia and Venezuela are seen as such cases.

Ask yourself another question, which nation selflessly exercises its influence for the well-being of others?
Which nation will lose in the power games between nations for conscientious objections?
To make the conclusion that for this reason democracy is a lie is not the same as seeing it within a framework of decisions with consequences and there are cases where power trumps morality.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Well I think the democracy being used to promote is almost to the level of utopian. If you look at the US, the electoral college elects the President and not the people. We've heard about dead people voting. I just heard about how now people are being declared dead so they can't vote. About a decade ago I found out that I was all of the sudden declared non-affiliated independent which I guess if I didn't catch it in time, I would be locked out of voting for candidates in the party I chose making my vote absolutely worthless. If these tricks are happening in the democarcies that are held out as the models, then it's all a lie. People can say they're for democracy but like I mentioned before... saying it is a whole lot different than practicing it.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
And Bruce Lee's infamous scene in his movie where he destroys a sign at a park saying "No Chinese or dogs allowed" posted by the Japanese was really historically put up by the British. But the filmmakers didn't want to get thrown into prison by telling the truth.

Your evidence that anyone was under threat of arrest for saying a sign was put up by the British colonial authorities is what, exactly?

Hong Kong handover was just a little over a decade ago and the people of Hong Kong could never elect their own leader.

What part of "Hong Kong was a colony" did you not understand? You can't have a colony if you can't legally exert some sort of control on the territory from the mother country. That's what the governor was for.

You claim that the CCP is unhappy with its "control of the country being eroded". Considering the fact that the current state of China was achieved single-handedly by the CCP, your claim is simply preposterous.

Haha, there's a good argument that China is where it is in spite of the CCP, not because of it. But more importantly, China has changed in ways that the CCP has learnt to accept but not necessarily would have chosen to happen if there had been an alternative. The CCP would have never created the internet, smart phones or social media because they allow people to share information in ways that it finds hard to control. It tolerates them because it decides the financial benefits outweigh their limits in managing them. That doesn't mean it's pleased.

Finally, you seem to be saying that a nation must first have stability in order to become a "democracy". What then, is the purpose of democracy?

No, I said that it's pretty hard to have democracy if you don't have stability. You can't impose democracy at the end of a gun, because the whole point of the system is that most people agree to settle their differences in peaceful ways like by exercising choice at elections, putting their views to the media, trusting in an independent judiciary, etc. It's like civil policing. If even a few percent of the whole population went crazy and embarked on a massive crime spree, there's little the authorities could do short of breaking out the heavy machineguns and killing everyone. The system is based on the vast majority of people being law abiding.

So can you explain to me what government system does India, Philippine, Indonesia, Haiti, Mexico, Iraq and Afghanistan have?

India, the Philippines, Indonesia and Mexico could be counted as flawed democracies. They may have fairly open elections, but they have problems with areas like personal freedoms or judicial independence (Mexico's security situation has already been raised). Iraq is a sort of hybrid, with elements of democracy but very flawed. I would say Afghanistan is mostly authoritarian.

I don't know much about Haiti.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Your evidence that anyone was under threat of arrest for saying a sign was put up by the British colonial authorities is what, exactly?



What part of "Hong Kong was a colony" did you not understand? You can't have a colony if you can't legally exert some sort of control on the territory from the mother country. That's what the governor was for.


Because I heard that was the story. The British imprisoned children for wanting the truth be taught in school. Let's bring up Northern Ireland... A lot of imprisoning people without due process there. That's historical evidence that the British will jail anyone that dares to go against their interests. Where's the evidence of China cheating at the Olympics? Now all of the sudden you require evidence for it to be true. Is that like how the British can deny democracy but when Beijing does it it's an international human rights crime?

And Beijing is doing the exact same thing except the people of Hong Kong have lived under the "democracy" the British left longer under China than ever with the 156 year totalitarian rule of Great Britain.
 
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jackliu

Banned Idiot
India, the Philippines, Indonesia and Mexico could be counted as flawed democracies. They may have fairly open elections, but they have problems with areas like personal freedoms or judicial independence (Mexico's security situation has already been raised). Iraq is a sort of hybrid, with elements of democracy but very flawed. I would say Afghanistan is mostly authoritarian.

I don't know much about Haiti.

There is no government type as "Flawed Democracy" my friend.
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And if you think Iraq and Afghanistan have "flawed democracy" then you are not really arguing with us, one of the main point of this whole discussion is that for different societies, democracy very well not be the best form of government for them, and when a society is not ready, but yet forced democracy upon them will often result in failure.

That means it is very possible and actually already happening that a functioning Authoritarian nation will benefit it is own people much more than a failed democracy nation. China is actually the best example here, sure India have democracy and voting, but how many people did India raise out of poverty vs China's? Everyone now bitch about China's human right, well guess what genius, if you compare China's human right with UK or US it will always fall short, but somehow no one compare China's progress with China, all the mainstream media coverage about China are nothing but negative. Tell me you find no problem with this?

You pointed out that democracy means more than voting, but have you think about what happen when you only introduce election into a nation without addressing any other aspect? Which is actually exactly what the Western nations trying to do all around the world, they don't care about a nation's social/racial/historical background as long as it introduce democracy, and then somehow it will be all sunshine and rainbows. Iraq and Afghanistan is the best example of that fail policy, and yet, the Western government is still pushing this agenda all over the world on Syria, Lydia, Egypt, China etc...

Please tell me you find absolutely nothing wrong with this?

btw, I there I won't call them "Flawed democracy", I call them "Failed democracy"
 

IronsightSniper

Junior Member
Ah, so you want to make the bad look good, by compare it to worse. How convenient that Venezuela is actually in the top 5 of homicide rate in the world, and everyone knows Japan is one of the most orderly society in the world. So in the spirit of picking data for fit your own argument, I like to do the same.

China homicide rate vs USA, China have much lower rate.

or rather, let me save you the trouble
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Majority of the top 10 nation by homicide rate have democratic system, <Insert them> compare with <authoritarian nation> anywhere down the list.

There you go, your argument is now invalid.

Of course, you're not taking any of it into context. I compared Japan and China because of their similarity in societal structure, in that they're both East Asian (yes, this may have been more racy). The Korean countries are far more compatible for comparison in that they're both similar in most ways except the fact that one follows the Supreme Leader and the other is more democratic than such. Next, Venezuela v. Mexico were also compared to each other due to the fact that both of them are dealing with a rampant drug issue. You should realize that I only picked countries that were comparable to each other because anomalies like the U.S. is incomparable to most countries.
 
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