Democracy vs Authoritarianism

JsCh

Junior Member
Ok, maybe I am going off topic.
But does it really have to be a vs b? one or the other? good vs evil?
Every country have their own cultural heritage, and more importantly political, social and economical traditions. I do not think that these political theories should be considered as that important. Country should not be put into that mold. The cold war is after all, long gone, but somehow, it live on.
 

JsCh

Junior Member
Ok, maybe I am going off topic.
But does it really have to be a vs b? one or the other? good vs evil?
Every country have their own cultural heritage, and more importantly political, social and economical traditions. I do not think that these political theories should be considered as that important. Country should not be put into that mold. The cold war is after all, long gone, but somehow, it live on.
 

Kurt

Junior Member
As to Singapore and Hong Kong you have to look at the European city model (polis, civitas, Medieval commune). It is about an agreement to voluntary participate in a large economically successful human organization within limited space. Elected, hereditary or self-made gouvernment were just choices about making this system work. The civil rights are part of the voluntary participation requirement ideas with money and penalties to ensure stability of the profitable enterprise always the dominant basic theme.
Both cities work perfectly fine based on the paramount economic function of the city concept and have well blended multiple inputs from various sources into their own concept that did develop apart from the Western World where from the roots an increasingly limited viewpoint has been extracted that does not allow for ideological alternatives.

I agree that it is not a or b. For me it is about security of rights, but others can see something similar as security of laws. We all want to be more than just sheep to a government with some capability to shape their decisions to benefit us and secure our important vitals like respected rights or law-obdience. These are seen as requirements for our ongoing success that is usually equated with success of the system we partake.
You can base such a system on select distribution of favours and well-being at the expense of other humans. This is the Western Eurasian and African slavery tradition, last enacted on a grand scale by the animal-lover Hitler. He did create a giant sheme to restructure the world on older ideological templates of our past fitted to the creation of a new present and future that eventually failed. But it provided enough economic benefits to still convince many people all over Europe to long for that reported time of great personal benefits by grand public projects. The idea is not dead and it works simply by a credit based economic bubble with massive armament for robbing your neighbour state's bank vaults for continuing liquidity.
The cold truth of the city and the states derived from these cities is that most things can be traded for economic benefits, but trading a few issues will backlash because within this set-up they are fences against human nature that otherwise destroys the communal system for personal gains. Democracy has and will always be a timocracy. Lobbyism is just one expression of that truth. As long as the established fences stand and there are pressures on the timocracy to earn via cooperation and not exploitation, people feel free and satisfied. Authoritarian systems have an easier route to exploitation and discontent due to perceived personal underachievement for they are quite capable to set up large scale very unfair external conditions. You get a revolution as soon as the system is rigged enough to deprieve very capable people of their chances - they fight back with all means necessary and if they need guns and bombs, so be it. Guess what, in no democracy exists a level playing field, but discontent is usually within tolerable levels and has a less destructive outlet for capable challengers. But they can fail due to corruption of leaders and representatives for effective status quo. Insert Chinese man-of-letters and scholar and you see the same pattern.

The authoritarian system is very quick and can quickly transform anything for good or bad. Democratic systems are best seen as institutionalized and quite lethargic with lots of friction if ever moving. The advantage of lethargy is that you don't screw up things yourself without having enough time to reliably predict and correct the course. Authoritarian forms have their benefits if rapid development, usually due to external influences, is required, but lack the safety net of the slower institutions. The longer you keep on such a dangerous fast track, the higher are the chances that it will fail due to leadership errors (human nature). More institutional systems can be dinosaurs (extinct) or crocodiles (same design since millions of years) and institutional designs don't require democracy, a seemingly open meritocracy like in ancient China can do the same service. Democracy as an institution tries to keep at bay special self-serving interest groups, but can fail on a large scale if you look at Greece.
 
Last edited:

Lezt

Junior Member
Ok, maybe I am going off topic.
But does it really have to be a vs b? one or the other? good vs evil?
Every country have their own cultural heritage, and more importantly political, social and economical traditions. I do not think that these political theories should be considered as that important. Country should not be put into that mold. The cold war is after all, long gone, but somehow, it live on.


I think the real issue is not Democracy vs. Authoritarianism; they are really two end of an extreme.

people rule ------------------------> one man rule

Where people rule, every person is equal in the decision making process and one man rule is basically one man call all the shots.

There are no real governments which can exist at each extreme - except of a one person only society; all governments is a balance. Communism and Democracy are both people rule, and as such it had never worked in real life. Similarly, authoritarianism, be it the monarch or a dictator always had marshals who carried significant power.

Majority rule, which is different than democracy works. Similarly, fascism and monarchy works, but they are not authoritarianism.
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
In the end, government is about power and influence. The reason armed rebellions is effective for creating a blank slate is that it removes everyone who had been in power before. No doubt that it is highly destructive and bloody, but it is effective when it succeeds.

The problem with a democratic style revolution is that it leaves the people with real power untouched. Presidents come and go, but the parties stay, the lobby groups remain the same, and the senate/parliament/congress still draws from the same pool of super wealthy elites.

Imagine the Communist Party if they came to power with an election instead of a war. Even if removed from the post of president, Chiang would still have vast influence over the wealthy in China, including ties to the 4 Great Families of Shanghai, who controlled the majority of China's economy at the time.

Agree, this Right/Republican and Left/Democrats polarization is really nothing but an illusion, which serves to keep the people in sport mentality to support one or the other team. While they are sponsored by the same thing, the big corporations.

Right now people still believe in the government, that's why when one party screw up the other one take over, and people are so passionate about voting. But I think if this keep going on for another 20 years when people realize no matter which party got elected, the economy will not change, maybe that is the time people can see through the illusion, and do something about it.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Can I ask a question - have you even all agreed what democracy is? Because if you haven't, I'm not sure how anyone can discuss it.

Just a hint - democracy isn't limited to elections.
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
Can I ask a question - have you even all agreed what democracy is? Because if you haven't, I'm not sure how anyone can discuss it.

Just a hint - democracy isn't limited to elections.

Show me a democracy that does not have election.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Show me a democracy that does not have election.

I didn't say democracies don't need to have elections. I said democracy isn't limited to elections.

If you still don't get it, you give me a full description of what democracy is in your view.
 

Kurt

Junior Member
I didn't say democracies don't need to have elections. I said democracy isn't limited to elections.

If you still don't get it, you give me a full description of what democracy is in your view.

Can you define democracy as an institutional system with broadest participation enabled?
 

solarz

Brigadier
I didn't say democracies don't need to have elections. I said democracy isn't limited to elections.

If you still don't get it, you give me a full description of what democracy is in your view.

Sounds like a case of "no true Scotsman" to me.

A *functional* democratic government requires more than elections, absolutely. However, in the context of democracy vs authoritarianism, the fundamental difference lies in how the people choose their leaders.
 
Top