DCNS SMX OCEAN heavy SSK

SamuraiBlue said:

Auhh, the Soryu class is bigger than the Collins class in all dimensions(length, beam and Displacement).

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Could be, the numbers I was going off were 2950 tonne surfaced for Soryu and 3100 tonne for Collins. Regarding dimensions, I believe Soryu is a double-hull design whereas Collins isn't. But in any case, certainly they are comparably sized, and both much smaller than this 4700 tonne proposal.

Scratch said:

On a side note, yesterday I found this:

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So Japan is going away from AIP, in favor of the higher power density Li Ion batteries. While the DCNS concept utilizes both. I wonder if that makes the Australians look a bit further now, or if an austrailian Soryu could still be built with AIP.

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The article said the Japanese had maintenance problem with their AIP system. It is puzzling why they removed the AIP when they could've just replaced the lead acid batteries with lithium ion. Without upgrade, the diesel generators on Soryu have half the charging capacity of Collins, meaning more vulnerable time spent snorkeling. Increasing the battery storage capacity without upgrading the generators just makes the problem worse.

shen said:

The article said the Japanese had maintenance problem with their AIP system. It is puzzling why they removed the AIP when they could've just replaced the lead acid batteries with lithium ion. Without upgrade, the diesel generators on Soryu have half the charging capacity of Collins, meaning more vulnerable time spent snorkeling. Increasing the battery storage capacity without upgrading the generators just makes the problem worse.

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I can only see that you've got no idea what you're writing about...

Janiz said:

I can only see that you've got no idea what you're writing about...

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you do? and that's why you resort to personal attack?

One possibility is that the AIP is taken out because the space used to house more generators. That would reflect a shift in Japanese strategy. Whereas before SSK is mainly seen by the Japanese as a defensive weapon, slowly patrolling close to the home island under AIP power. Now they want faster transit speed, for, what's the politically correct word, oh power projection.
but, apparently there is not enough space in the Soryu design to have the best of both world, having the AIP silent slow patrol speed and fast transit speed.

shen said:

The article said the Japanese had maintenance problem with their AIP system. It is puzzling why they removed the AIP when they could've just replaced the lead acid batteries with lithium ion. Without upgrade, the diesel generators on Soryu have half the charging capacity of Collins, meaning more vulnerable time spent snorkeling. Increasing the battery storage capacity without upgrading the generators just makes the problem worse.

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Within the article I was not able to find any reference about any problems in maintenance with the AIP systems. Where did you get that idea?
I also don't know where you pulled out the "half the charging capacity of Collins" figure either.
Basically janiz's observation of you not knowing what your are writing about is correct.

SamuraiBlue said:

Within the article I was not able to find any reference about any problems in maintenance with the AIP systems. Where did you get that idea?
I also don't know where you pulled out the "half the charging capacity of Collins" figure either.
Basically janiz's observation of you not knowing what your are writing about is correct.

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from the article "Navy regards AIP as maintenance intensive". Why do you think they took out the AIP if it wasn't causing maintenance problem as the article suggests?

Samuraiblue, you were there several years ago when the long discussion of Soryu vs Collins came up on warships1 forum. Do you want me to dig up the link?

According to article, Soryu in current configuration has 2x1400kW generators while Collins has 3x1400kW generators.

shen said:

from the article "Navy regards AIP as maintenance intensive". Why do you think they took out the AIP if it wasn't causing maintenance problem as the article suggests?

Samuraiblue, you were there several years ago when the long discussion of Soryu vs Collins came up on warships1 forum. Do you want me to dig up the link?

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Maintenance intensive and maintenance problems are two different matter and I really do not what you are talking about so please do.

SamuraiBlue said:

Maintenance intensive and maintenance problems are two different matter and I really do not what you are talking about so please do.

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if your car is maintenance intensive, that's not a problem?



Lethe is correct, my memory was wrong, Soryu has 2/3 the electric generating power of Collins. That equals more time spent snorkeling, which increases vulnerability. Increasing electric storage by changing to Lithium ion but maintaining the electric generating capacity equals even longer charging time to me.

Other problems raised with adopting Soryu as is. No special force support facility. No LACM capability. before you say the missing capabilities can be added, Australians already view Soryu's crew living quarter is cramped. So the existing Soryu is far from fulfilling Australian requirements. While an enlarged Soryu+ would be a paper submarine just like the SMX Ocean.

shen said:

if your car is maintenance intensive, that's not a problem?

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Lethe is correct, my memory was wrong, Soryu has 2/3 the electric generating power of Collins. That equals more time spent snorkeling, which increases vulnerability. Increasing electric storage by changing to Lithium ion but maintaining the electric generating capacity equals even longer charging time to me.

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No I do not since they know what to do to maintain operations while problems in general are irregular in occurrence not knowing when it will happen next. If you can anticipate things it doesn't need to be a problem.

And I wonder where he got those figures?

The output of the Kawasaki 12Ｖ 25/25 SB-type diesel engines are not disclosed nor what type of generators they store.If you think all generators have similar energy output you are terribly mistaken.