CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
Everyone does things for a reason.

China military is expanding, that does not mean China will spend resources irrationally. Nuclear carriers can only serve in two possible scenarios in which their cost is justified by extra benefits, when China invades either US or a European country. It's my opinion that should not be China's plan.

The military expansion so far is mainly for defense purposes, including for the Taiwan strait war. Outside of the above two scenarios, nuclear carriers are no longer cost-effective solutions. Becoming another US, then intervene other countries, was never China's intention. Even if the gov somehow pursues that, it is a hard sell to the population
This leaves a very important detail: The current US control of the Pacific Ocean. The US has a lot of bases on pacific. Guam, Wake Island, Hawaii, smaller bases on small atolls and ahem, Japan. As long as China can not fight the US back to the shores of California it won't have a real conventional deterrence. Being able to forcefully eject the US from West Pacific is the minimum level of capability China should aim for. You need a lot of carriers for that. A lot. I think China will build as many as 14 carriers by mid-2050s. Until then, carriers can be used for defense too by using them to push the boundary of A2/AD bubble further. They can be especially useful in protecting ASW aircraft (which is the current doctrine BTW). Unless China wants to deal with fuel needs of 10+ 100,000 ton ships it will use nuclear propulsion.

Note: Unlike China, a blockade would break Japan fast. It is a very densely populated island that is very poor in resources. Long distance force projection is how China could tame Japan.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
This leaves a very important detail: The current US control of the Pacific Ocean. The US has a lot of bases on pacific. Guam, Wake Island, Hawaii, smaller bases on small atolls and ahem, Japan. As long as China can not fight the US back to the shores of California it won't have a real conventional deterrence. Being able to forcefully eject the US from West Pacific is the minimum level of capability China should aim for. You need a lot of carriers for that. A lot. I think China will build as many as 14 carriers by mid-2050s. Until then, carriers can be used for defense too by using them to push the boundary of A2/AD bubble further. They can be especially useful in protecting ASW aircraft (which is the current doctrine BTW). Unless China wants to deal with fuel needs of 10+ 100,000 ton ships it will use nuclear propulsion.

Note: Unlike China, a blockade would break Japan fast. It is a very densely populated island that is very poor in resources. Long distance force projection is how China could tame Japan.

14 carriers would be a bit much, especially if you extrapolate the escort and support fleets needed for that many carriers.

The idea of trying to hit California with carrier fleets is too far fetched at present, I think the PLA’s ambitions are both more modest and daring at the same time.

The ultimate goal would be to take the first island chain and shatter the second. The first island chain can be taken and essentially used as springboards to roll up all the islands without needing to reply completely on naval aviation similar to allied strategy against Japan during WWII.

Those seized islands would be built up and maybe even extended similar to SCS islands into a string of fortresses to safeguard China’s mainland coast while also forming a noose around Japan’s neck as part of a long term starvation strategy to bring them to heel. At the same time, those first island chain bases would be used to continuously strike at US assets deployed to the second island chain to attrition and trap them in a massively unfavourable fight. American pride and ambition would not allow them to simply abandon those islands, but the tyranny of distance makes that an extremely disadvantageous location to try to hold, for both sides. But with first island chain fortresses, China could launch attacks against those second island chain bases and any convoys headed to Japan more or less indefinitely with keeping the mainland essentially safe from attack.

That’s how I foresee the AR of Taiwan to finish, in a weird stalemate between a fully hot and Cold War where China secures it’s heartland while slowly starving Japan to oblivion and fights American forces all along the second island chain for as long as America wants to continue to fight. If America gives up and pulls out of the second island chain, I think China will still not move in to take those islands and instead would be content to leave them unoccupied as a sort of no-man’s land buffer zone, as they would face the unbearable logistics burden if they tried to garrison those islands.

For such a strategy, you don’t need a stupid number of carriers, since like the SCS, the burden of defence and offensive will be shared between naval and land based forces. The minimum carrier fleet the PLAN would need is what is needed to take the first islands and keep them, and the massive construction fleets secured until the islands can be expanded into self sustaining fortresses.

For that kind of operation, carriers are actually not much more important than LHDs and LHAs, since China’s A2AD forces and assets would already be able to do the lion share of the heavy lifting in terms of keeping US surface and carrier fleets at arms length. The bigger challenge will probably be ASW, as I foresee the USN relying disproportionately on its sub fleets for offensive operations as Chinese AShBMs and hypersonics keeps USN surface fleets well back.

USN carrier ops will probably involve mostly long range missile spams, while PLAN carrier ops would focus mostly on defending against those attacks.

How many such island bases China may want to build up at the same time will probably be the primary factor in determining how many carriers they need.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Obviously China wants to build a force structure that is normal sized relative to their economy. That means a number of nuclear supercarriers sooner or later.

But more recently, they are also dealing with an increasingly aggressive and militarized America. Americans have amassed a numerically larger force and could threaten to start a conflict in the upcoming few years.

With this background, it is more important to put out high lethality anti ship platforms, assymetric weapons that will overwhelmingly destroy aggressors, rather than CVN that go fleet vs fleet battle, where the enemy has the numbers advantage.

What I'm referring to is new nuclear submarines and more destroyers for the navy, stealth bombers and new drones for the air force.

All that can be put into action almost instantly, creating a strong deterrent effect, because China already has leadership in those areas. Whereas learning CVN operation will take time.
 

gongolongo

Junior Member
Registered Member
Logically it would make sense if they build 2 more 003 simultaneously at Dalian and Jiangnan to acquire and retain skills needed for 004.
Not logical for the wallet. Especially if 003 is a new style of carrier for China.
 

Andy1974

Senior Member
Registered Member
China has to protect its trade routes, and PLA it’s development. Nuclear carriers are better for protecting SLOCs, I think this will be one of the main missions of future nuclear carriers.

A nuclear carrier could protect Chinas main trade route in the Indian Ocean, using the base in Djibouti to support its escorts, including supply ships. It could also threaten and harass the US base in Diego Garcia and help protect against USAF incursions from that direction.

A conventionally powered Type 003 may offer other advantages not mentioned here: it may be able to go places a nuclear carrier cannot, for legal reasons. The South Pacific is a great candidate for being nuclear free, New Zealand already is.

Additionally, Type 003 should be able to be exported to various countries that don’t mind overpaying for Gucci kit. Can you imagine a Saudi or UAE carrier group, for example?

How much do you think a Type 003E would cost?
 
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TK3600

Major
Registered Member
China has to protect its trade routes, and PLA it’s development. Nuclear carriers are better for protecting SLOCs, I think this will be one of the main missions of future nuclear carriers.

A nuclear carrier could protect Chinas main trade route in the Indian Ocean, using the base in Djibouti to support its escorts, including supply ships. It could also threaten and harass the US base in Diego Garcia and help protect against USAF incursions from that direction.

A conventionally powered Type 003 may offer other advantages not mentioned here: it may be able to go places a nuclear carrier cannot, for legal reasons. The South Pacific is a great candidate for being nuclear free, New Zealand already is.

Additionally, Type 003 should be able to be exported to various countries that don’t mind overpaying for Gucci kit. Can you imagine a Saudi or UAE carrier group, for example?

How much do you think a Type 003E would cost?
Lol export 052D first. Even that is insanely big deal. I don't think Saudi Arabia has a destroyer yet.

Not even Saudi Arabia can afford a 003 with full support fleet, escort, and carrier based planes. Once those are done, there needs to be experienced crews and those are not for sale. 003 on its own is useless even if one were to buy it.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
Lol export 052D first. Even that is insanely big deal. I don't think Saudi Arabia has a destroyer yet.

Not even Saudi Arabia can afford a 003 with full support fleet, escort, and carrier based planes. Once those are done, there needs to be experienced crews and those are not for sale. 003 on its own is useless even if one were to buy it.
We're deviating bro BUT I want to give my 2 cents worth, 052D is perfect for Russia, they can manufacture the gas turbine engine, HQ 9 is partially base on S300 so there is some commonality. So the Russian Navy can just purchase the hull and the radar and put on their weapons like the Kashtan CIWS.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
China has to protect its trade routes, and PLA it’s development. Nuclear carriers are better for protecting SLOCs, I think this will be one of the main missions of future nuclear carriers.

Carriers can impose sea control over large areas

And protecting your own distant SLOCs also means the ability to control all the SLOCs in the same area

A nuclear carrier could protect Chinas main trade route in the Indian Ocean, using the base in Djibouti to support its escorts, including supply ships. It could also threaten and harass the US base in Diego Garcia and help protect against USAF incursions from that direction.

A conventionally powered Type 003 may offer other advantages not mentioned here: it may be able to go places a nuclear carrier cannot, for legal reasons. The South Pacific is a great candidate for being nuclear free, New Zealand already is.

Additionally, Type 003 should be able to be exported to various countries that don’t mind overpaying for Gucci kit. Can you imagine a Saudi or UAE carrier group, for example?

How much do you think a Type 003E would cost?

I've seen figures of $4 Bn for the Type-003 floating around, which sounds about right to me
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I am of the opinion, articulated here previously, that China should produce a further three conventional Fujian-type carriers at short (3 year) intervals, in order to arrive at six operating carriers at relatively low cost by 2035, which is not to say that I think China will do this. Indeed, if we don't hear news of steel-cutting on the next carrier by end 2023 I think we can say that notion is dead. Nonetheless I do think that nuclear-powered carriers both should be and are likely to be in PLAN's future. The question, as you say, is when.

By 2035, I've got a low estimate of 5 Chinese carriers and a high estimate of 9.

The high estimate is based on a new nuclear carrier, then another of a proven Type-003 design till 2030.
Then the 2 Chinese shipyards launching 4 carriers in a 5-year timeframe from 2030-2035, like what happened with the Forrestal-class carriers.

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And if you want to build carriers at the lowest cost, you would want a shipyard to build them:
1. With a 2 year module assembly period, you build carriers consecutively one after another
2. Or have 2 of them built at the same time next to each other, but taking somewhat longer than 2 years to assemble
 
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