CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
The top diagrams should be the closest to the ideal design

You would want all of the Energy Storage Groups to feed to a single Electrical Busbar. That single Electrical Busbar would then be able to feed any of EM catapults.

So you can afford to have some of the Energy Storage Groups fail but still provide enough electricity for a successful EM catapult launch.

But the Ford EMALS didn't have on/off switches to disconnect each individual EM catapult from the single Electrical Busbar.
I agree with your assessment in bold texts.

But I disagree with your reply to @Atomicfrog in this post, bold texts.
An Electrical Busbar is literally a single solid piece of metal, with electrical cables to each of the loads (catapults) and batteries (energy storage groups).
There's no reason for one to go bad as it has no moving parts. The only thing that moves on the Busbar are the electrons.

The bottom right diagram you had looks like additional cables connecting the different busbars
The things that go wrong is not the bar or the cables connected. The bar itself is just another thick cable. The risk is anything that is connected to the bus. For a AC grid, if any load (launch motors and flywheels here) runs out of sync with one another, your grid will melt. That is how you get a black out in civilian AC grid when there is a sudden change of load. That is also why you need fuses to prevent the disaster from spreading.

The basics is something like this, an AC grid is a inductor, all its consumers are inductors and capacitors. AC grid will be at a stabilized frequency and phase when all loads are stable. If one consumer changes its power draw, it will be out of sync of the stabilized frequency and phase due to its inductance and capacitance.

Think about a pendulum, the frequency is fixed to its length, the amplitude of the swing can be different. Changing the amplitude is equal to changing power draw in AC grid. Now if a series of pendulum is in sync they won't hit one another, but now you want to increase the amplitude of one, it will hit others therefor put them out of sync before they settle down again. That changing period is the problem for an AC grid.
 

montyp165

Senior Member
My belief is that the PLAN will require their true "standard" carrier type will have aviation and sortie generation capabilities that are non-inferior to that of contemporary USN carriers, and when the requisite industry capabilities are sufficiently high and the risks are deemed sufficiently mitigated, they will adopt a flight deck configuration that emulates that of contemporary US carriers.
Heck, CV-18 Fujian is already pretty close.
I guess the difference would be how much is operational convergence vs differing operational requirements.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I guess the difference would be how much is operational convergence vs differing operational requirements.

Agreed, in principle.

But for our purposes, when discussing how the flight deck configuration of future PLAN carriers after Fujian (especially a clean sheet, nuclear carrier that is larger in size).....
..... IMO, unless one explicitly believes the PLAN will want to pursue an aviation generating capability that is different (either lower or potentially greater) than that of a contemporary US CVN, I think it is fair to argue that the flight deck configuration of US supercarriers remain the gold standard for maximal capability when you have a ship that is the result of a large, maximally funded and maximally capable industry.

Again, what is impressive with 003 is how much they manage to get right on the first go of developing a large CATOBAR carrier despite having a few handicaps like being a smaller carrier than a contemporary US CVN, integrating a number of new technologies, being conventionally powered, and being a design that at the end of the day still mitigates certain key aspects of risk.
 

Helius

Senior Member
Registered Member
As I've previously written, I think Fujian's configuration makes a lot of sense when it is a 85,000t conventionally powered carrier. Three catapults and two large elevators is absolutely fine.

But if you and others are suggesting that the flight deck configuration of Fujian is optimal for the PLAN's needs, rather than a reflection of a limitation of various (IMO sensible) design measures and risk reduction measures on Fujian, then I strongly disagree with you.


You wrote: "American supercarriers are heretofore peerless, state-of-the-art and best-in-class, so a Chinese Ford is what China should build" as if to demonstrate that it is not a sensible one.
But this is pretty close to what I believe, for the PLAN at this stage of their carrier aviation development, for a number of reasons that includes what I believe PLA requirements for their carriers are, as well as emergence of key vital technologies and greater willingness to take on a clean sheet carrier design, and in the case of flight deck configuration I do believe that the USN's many more years of operating busy flight decks and sortie generation rates aboard their CVNs is something the PLAN would want to emulate and informed emulation of something like flight deck configuration is a no brainer if the rest of the ship allows for it.

The issue I take with basing what is one of China's most, if not the most, strategically significant military programmes on the rationale of emulating the USN's carrier doctrines, which have also seen major recent shifts as brought on by Ford's introduction, is the inherently reactive nature of this proposition, or perhaps more accurately, the "follow-the-puck" aspect of it.

To justify China's building of like-supercarriers that rival the US, I would think the issue invariably revolves around just what the PLAN plans(!) to do with their CVs in the first place, and I would also think there's an exhaustive list of questions we may have to ask ourselves, which, needless to say would be such a lengthy discussion which I must admit I may not have the will to get into the nitty-gritty of it.

[...] may not necessarily apply to the PLAN's own operational needs [...]

That said, going back to my above point, I think the simple truth is that we don't know how the PLAN actually intends to operate their carrier fleets as they continue to expand and mature. I think there'd be little disagreement that they're very much still at the training, exploration and refinement phase of their carrier-operating competency, surely to be compounded by now having a CATOBAR in the mix. Then again, STOBAR was never the end goal to begin with, so the PLAN would have surely and expectedly been training as if they were operating on a CATOBAR platform off site and at sea.

So once the PLAN's carrier fleets (however many that may end up to be) reach the level of matured operability and sortie rates that can be considered as on par with that of the USN, what does the PLAN hope to achieve then?

If I may name just a very few obvious scenarios -

- Do they envision themselves conducting A2AD not just around the 1st and 2nd island chains but beyond? Where?

- Do they expect to conduct expeditionary strikes and policing ops like the US? Against whom?

- Do they expect to pit their own carriers against US carriers? For what purpose would either side do that?

Apart form the prestige and intimidation factor of having the biggest and baddest, just on these circumstances alone how realistically do we think the PLAN would envision themselves conducting these operations/ventures/power projections that would warrant acquiring precisely such compositions and capabilities the USN's CVNs have to offer?

Perhaps I could be misunderstanding what the PLAN's operational requirements actually are, if they've ever published anything recently that I may have missed. Or maybe you could be so kind to elaborate on it.

To the sure, I don't dispute the technological advantages China has undeniably benefited from observing and studying US CVN progress, esp. in nuclear propulsion and EMALS, and quite possibly electronics suites, and improving upon them. That much is obvious.

When it comes the time the PLAN gets around to building a 100,000 ton CVN in earnest, I don't mean to sound arrogant or dismissive, but in terms of emulating the USN down to the way they design, configure and build their state-of-art carriers which ultimately dictates the fashion in which the USN gets to operate them, however, that's where I think watchers should probably expect the PLAN would pay due consideration to how it may differ, or not, in the capabilities a homegrown 100,000 ton CVN can afford them to achieve in the face of adversarial military assets the PLAN intends to deploy it against, in theatres where the PLAN intends to deploy it, and the roles in which the PLAN intends to employ it, and probably not "what China would do with a CVN like the Ford".
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The issue I take with basing what is one of China's most, if not the most, strategically significant military programmes on the rationale of emulating the USN's carrier doctrines, which have also seen major recent shifts as brought on by Ford's introduction, is the inherently reactive nature of this proposition, or perhaps more accurately, the "follow-the-puck" aspect of it.

To justify China's building of like-supercarriers that rival the US, I would think the issue invariably revolves around just what the PLAN plans(!) to do with their CVs in the first place, and I would also think there's an exhaustive list of questions we may have to ask ourselves, which, needless to say would be such a lengthy discussion which I must admit I may not have the will to get into the nitty-gritty of it.

Well, yes, you've hit the nail on the head.

I believe that as part of the PLAN's future requirements as part of the PLA's overall strategic procurement, USN style nuclear supercarriers are necessary. I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about what the PLA and PLAN's future requirements and warfighting doctrine and plans may be. There are multiple threads about that already, and I have described my vision for it a number of times over the years, most recently here in this post:

If you or anyone else want to discuss it further, feel free to continue there.

But for this thread, to have context for my position -- I believe that for the PLA's future warfighting needs, I believe they will desire future carriers to be both nuclear powered, large and have aviation generating capabilities that are not inferior to that of USN supercarriers.

My position on 003's flight deck configuration and further (what I believe to be inevitable) room for improvement on future carriers, should be understood on that basis
 
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Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
In my opinion, I don't think this part tells the whole story. How did they determine that China is 10 years ahead? If China mastered MVDC in the early 2000s then according to this interpretation the West should already have had mature MVDC technology, which as far as I know is not the case.

I used to be convinced that China had the lead on MVDC, but through the years my conviction has faded away. If they had this technology 20 years ago why haven't we seen any PLAN combatants employ it? In the meantime, the West has been building full electric warships with MVAC grids since 2003 (Type 45 destroyer) and LVDC warships since 2011 (Zumwalt). Not to mention the multitude of commercial LVDC ships designed and built in the West in the last 15 years.

At this rate, by the time China fields a MVDC ship the advantage over the West will be far less than the alleged 10 years. How depressing.
I recall Xi Yazhou talked about this in one of his talks, this type of system is in use on PLAN conventional submarines and it allows stirling engine to both propel the ship and charge the battery at the same time, something that the Japanense Souryuu-class is not capable of.

In fact I remember it because he prefaced it with a very vivid analogy: Star Wars makes us think a ship's power could in real time and trivially be switched between propulsion/shield/weapon when you see star ship captains yell on screen things like "all available power to shields, intensify forward deflectors". In reality redistributing power around on a ship is tricky and get it wrong and you could black out the whole ship and have to get it towed back to port. Fortunately China was able to solve this problem and allow stirling engine recharge with an advanced power transformer system.

 
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Daniel707

Junior Member
Registered Member
The issue I take with basing what is one of China's most, if not the most, strategically significant military programmes on the rationale of emulating the USN's carrier doctrines, which have also seen major recent shifts as brought on by Ford's introduction, is the inherently reactive nature of this proposition, or perhaps more accurately, the "follow-the-puck" aspect of it.

To justify China's building of like-supercarriers that rival the US, I would think the issue invariably revolves around just what the PLAN plans(!) to do with their CVs in the first place, and I would also think there's an exhaustive list of questions we may have to ask ourselves, which, needless to say would be such a lengthy discussion which I must admit I may not have the will to get into the nitty-gritty of it.



That said, going back to my above point, I think the simple truth is that we don't know how the PLAN actually intends to operate their carrier fleets as they continue to expand and mature. I think there'd be little disagreement that they're very much still at the training, exploration and refinement phase of their carrier-operating competency, surely to be compounded by now having a CATOBAR in the mix. Then again, STOBAR was never the end goal to begin with, so the PLAN would have surely and expectedly been training as if they were operating on a CATOBAR platform off site and at sea.

So once the PLAN's carrier fleets (however many that may end up to be) reach the level of matured operability and sortie rates that can be considered as on par with that of the USN, what does the PLAN hope to achieve then?

If I may name just a very few obvious scenarios -

- Do they envision themselves conducting A2AD not just around the 1st and 2nd island chains but beyond? Where?

- Do they expect to conduct expeditionary strikes and policing ops like the US? Against whom?

- Do they expect to pit their own carriers against US carriers? For what purpose would either side do that?

Apart form the prestige and intimidation factor of having the biggest and baddest, just on these circumstances alone how realistically do we think the PLAN would envision themselves conducting these operations/ventures/power projections that would warrant acquiring precisely such compositions and capabilities the USN's CVNs have to offer?

Perhaps I could be misunderstanding what the PLAN's operational requirements actually are, if they've ever published anything recently that I may have missed. Or maybe you could be so kind to elaborate on it.

To the sure, I don't dispute the technological advantages China has undeniably benefited from observing and studying US CVN progress, esp. in nuclear propulsion and EMALS, and quite possibly electronics suites, and improving upon them. That much is obvious.

When it comes the time the PLAN gets around to building a 100,000 ton CVN in earnest, I don't mean to sound arrogant or dismissive, but in terms of emulating the USN down to the way they design, configure and build their state-of-art carriers which ultimately dictates the fashion in which the USN gets to operate them, however, that's where I think watchers should probably expect the PLAN would pay due consideration to how it may differ, or not, in the capabilities a homegrown 100,000 ton CVN can afford them to achieve in the face of adversarial military assets the PLAN intends to deploy it against, in theatres where the PLAN intends to deploy it, and the roles in which the PLAN intends to employ it, and probably not "what China would do with a CVN like the Ford".
One of the mention from their media, is to maintain air superiority and control of the sea in Strategic region

 

coolgod

Colonel
Registered Member
One of the mention from their media, is to maintain air superiority and control of the sea in Strategic region

In the GT article it states
The homeport of the newly launched Fujian is not yet announced.

Senior Captain Liu Wensheng, spokesperson of the PLA Navy, said on Friday that the Navy will choose the deployment location of the Fujian based on the need to safeguard national sovereignty, security and development interests, as well as the characteristics of carrier operations and logistics support conditions of the port.
I thought it was decided 003 belongs to northern theatre command, is it possible to change? I've always thought the southern theatre command needed another carrier more. Why did China decide to allocate it to the north?
 
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