CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

nlalyst

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Because a 5% increase in length doesn't mean a 5% increase in tonnage.
Your assumption was that the beam and the draft remain constant: "Extending the ship's flight deck to be Nimitz/Ford length would've required a commensurate increase in hull length and displacement."

What does it mean then in your opinion?

I am aware of that particular relationship.

Yet the fact that they chose not to pursue a slightly longer ship (assuming that they could maintain an equal or greater speed while retaining the same propulsion), suggests to me that there must be a significant reason for it.

Of the various possibilities, like cost, design limitations, and limitations of technology, the most likely is probably technology, and of technology, I think the most likely domain is overwhelmingly propulsion.
I don't follow your conclusion. You just agreed that lengthening the ship may not have a detrimental effect on the ship's top speed (or that it could even have a positive effect) if the power plant is kept the same. Yet you come back to propulsion being the limiter?

My opinion is that this was a design/cost decision. The designers had a set of KPIs that had to be met with their design. Sure, they could make an even more capable ship my making it 15m longer but that would increase the cost. If the shorter ship already met all the KPIs, why build a longer, more expensive ship?
 
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Blitzo

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Your assumption was that the beam and the draft remain constant: "Extending the ship's flight deck to be Nimitz/Ford length would've required a commensurate increase in hull length and displacement."

What does it mean then in your opinion?

Yes, that was my assumption.
But a 5% increase in length -- depending on where that extra 5% is added -- may well produce a greater increase in displacement of 5% depending on where that "plug in" is added. I.e.: that the 5% increase in flight deck length would have a proportional increase in displacement. Not an "equal" increase in displacement.


I don't follow your conclusion. You just agreed that lengthening the ship may not have a detrimental effect on the ship's top speed (or that it could even have a positive effect) if the power plant is kept the same. Yet you come back to propulsion being the limiter?

My opinion is that this was a design/cost decision. The designers had a set of KPIs that had to be met with their design. Sure, they could make an ever better ship my making it 15m longer but that would increase the cost. If the shorter ship already met all the KPIs, why build a longer more expensive ship?

Because the benefits of a longer ship in terms of flight deck area -- and therefore in relation to being able to better position the catapults, and in turn the benefits of sortie rates -- are so obvious that if a lengthening of the ship was plausible without any limitations of propulsion, that it would be strange to not do so, even if there was an increase in cost.

It's certainly plausible they designed this ship to meet a specific KPI and thought the additional cost would not be worth it even if it offered better performance.
But the extra cost given how much associated money they've already poured into this project in terms of infrastructure, R&D, and also the length of time that this ship would be expected to be in service, would strike me as a short sighted decision if propulsion really wasn't a limiter.
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
Because the benefits of a longer ship in terms of flight deck area -- and therefore in relation to being able to better position the catapults, and in turn the benefits of sortie rates -- are so obvious that if a lengthening of the ship was plausible without any limitations of propulsion, that it would be strange to not do so, even if there was an increase in cost.

It's certainly plausible they designed this ship to meet a specific KPI and thought the additional cost would not be worth it even if it offered better performance.
But the extra cost given how much associated money they've already poured into this project in terms of infrastructure, R&D, and also the length of time that this ship would be expected to be in service, would strike me as a short sighted decision if propulsion really wasn't a limiter.
Fair enough. But we don't know how many carriers PLAN intends to procure nor what its budget limits are. It is conceivable that adopting the "high-end" carrier design option might lead to PLAN ultimately being able to afford one ship less.

With one ship less is the high-end carrier still a superior option? These are the sort of question I imagine they had to deal with in the design and selection phase.
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
Are we 100% confident the internal drydock width is 82m? The Naval News piece pretty much affirmed the estimated length of 003 at about 320m but estimated flight deck width fell well short.
It's really tricky to pinpoint the edges of the drydock in those photos due to angle and low contrast.

I decided instead to use the distance between the crane rails, as they are high contract in most photos. I measured their separation via google earth to 103.6m. Using this to determine the pixel size, I got 73.75m for the flight deck width. This is very close to the 74m estimated by CSIS.

003_csis.jpg
 
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