CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

[taxiya]

First 5th gen fighter to be launched off a carrier with emcat ever everyone.

I can't stop thinking of F-35 not launched from Ford when J-35 becomes the first. The official line from US media was that Ford need modifications like workspace, maintainence space, weapon handling etc specifically required by F-35 which Ford was NOT abled to be built for because F-35's final form was unknown when Ford was under construction.

That excuse always pazzled me as "what kind of unknown could have been the stopper". So I read GAO's 2016 report on AAG again. Here is what I've found. AAG program decided to test F-18 before F-35 to meet the deadline of having a fighter certified to be deployed on Ford when it is introduced. And that is what we have seen. Any aircraft has to pass dead weitht test, then real aircraft land based roll in test before it can be tested on the ship. Why choose F-18 over F-35? We know that F-35C is one tonne heavier than F-18 in empty and loaded weight. F-35 has higher landing speed than F-18. The kinetic energy is the product of weight and speed, meaning F-35 will put a significantly higher stress on AAG. The report also listed three critical problems of AAG, 1. water twister crack, 2. cable shock absorber damage, 3. software not able to keep aircraft slide out of range sideways. All these problems are made worse if the kinetic energy is higher. And even after rectified it is still riskier to begin with a heavier aircraft. So the natural approach is to go for F-18 first.

So it is not "unable to deploy" as if it can be launched and landed on the ship for a short period, but instead it can not be done even for testing porpuse. The open excuses just avoided to acknoledge the true embarrassment.

[addition]
The "hiding away" from true reason (AAG) happened in another time ealier about AAG. General Atomic stated that the reason that they used water twisters instead of using electrical alternator only (full electric breaking) was that water twister has smaller foot-print and weight. On that I have pointed out that the true reason is EMALS/AAG uses AC grid so that there is no way that they can use full electric breaking because that electric energy has to be converted/absorbed by some means of energy storage device in the grid. GA basically spinned a technical drawback into an advantage.

 

[bsdnf]

I can't stop thinking of F-35 not launched from Ford when J-35 becomes the first. The official line from US media was that Ford need modifications like workspace, maintainence space, weapon handling etc specifically required by F-35 which Ford was NOT abled to be built for because F-35's final form was unknown when Ford was under construction.

That excuse always pazzled me as "what kind of unknown could have been the stopper". So I read GAO's 2016 report on AAG again. Here is what I've found. AAG program decided to test F-18 before F-35 to meet the deadline of having a fighter certified to be deployed on Ford when it is introduced. And that is what we have seen. Any aircraft has to pass dead weitht test, then real aircraft land based roll in test before it can be tested on the ship. Why choose F-18 over F-35? We know that F-35C is one tonne heavier than F-18 in empty and loaded weight. F-35 has higher landing speed than F-18. The kinetic energy is the product of weight and speed, meaning F-35 will put a significantly higher stress on AAG. The report also listed three critical problems of AAG, 1. water twister crack, 2. cable shock absorber damage, 3. software not able to keep aircraft slide out of range sideways. All these problems are made worse if the kinetic energy is higher. And even after rectified it is still riskier to begin with a heavier aircraft. So the natural approach is to go for F-18 first.

So it is not "unable to deploy" as if it can be launched and landed on the ship for a short period, but instead it can not be done even for testing porpuse. The open excuses just avoided to acknoledge the true embarrassment.

Yes, it is not bureaucracy and supporting facilities that are holding back the F-35C, but the USN have done everything they can to make the Ford at least able to launch and land even the F-18. They are not waiting for the PLA to catch up, but are cleaning up a mess they started from. The problem is basically with EMAL and AAG.

 

[Michael90]

This marks a milestone, but the PLA will not stop here. Stay tuned. For example, the GJ-21

Whats GJ-21?

 

[gk1713]

Does anyone know why Chinese libs are losing their shit on Twitter/Weibo/Zhihu? To me the EMAL is cool and all but not really as big of a SeeSeePee win as dual Sixth Gen testflight or May 7th turkey shoot.

IMO, for Chinese libs, due to their mostly liberal arts education background, the fundamental fantasy of their "success" is based on old-school colonial history.
Which means the US(west) send CV(gunboat) to the big ports(Shanghai) and libs can work as collaborators.
It is not like 6th Gen cannot sink those US CV, but the Chinese to own same level CV tainted their most sacred belief.

 

[valysre]

The "hiding away" from true reason (AAG) happened in another time ealier about AAG. General Atomic stated that the reason that they used water twisters instead of using electrical alternator only (full electric breaking) was that water twister has smaller foot-print and weight. On that I have pointed out that the true reason is EMALS/AAG uses AC grid so that there is no way that they can use full electric breaking because that electric energy has to be converted/absorbed by some means of energy storage device in the grid. GA basically spinned a technical drawback into an advantage.

The whole usage of AC is insane, to me. The Americans use a spinning wheel to store the energy for discharge for launch, which means it needs to convert rotation -> DC -> AC. I can understand the usage of a rotating wheel, because American capacitor technology is almost certainly behind (speaking of which, do the Chinese EMALS use capacitor banks?). But using AC forces a conversion from DC and also makes it impossible as you mention to use induction breaking in the arresting gear. And nothing about linear motors seems to suggest that AC is a superior option to DC. I simply can't comprehend.

 

[siegecrossbow]

IMO, for Chinese libs, due to their mostly liberal arts education background, the fundamental fantasy of their "success" is based on old-school colonial history.
Which means the US(west) send CV(gunboat) to the big ports(Shanghai) and libs can work as collaborators.
It is not like 6th Gen cannot sink those US CV, but the Chinese to own same level CV tainted their most sacred belief.

So this will cause them to tear their hair out?
【《壮志凌云》片头曲福建舰版！-哔哩哔哩】

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[taxiya]

The whole usage of AC is insane, to me. The Americans use a spinning wheel to store the energy for discharge for launch, which means it needs to convert rotation -> DC -> AC. I can understand the usage of a rotating wheel, because American capacitor technology is almost certainly behind (speaking of which, do the Chinese EMALS use capacitor banks?). But using AC forces a conversion from DC and also makes it impossible as you mention to use induction breaking in the arresting gear. And nothing about linear motors seems to suggest that AC is a superior option to DC. I simply can't comprehend.

Fly-wheel is not the problem, PLAN uses it too on Fujian. Choice of fly-wheel is due to its highest energy density among practical options. Super capacitor has high power density but very low energy density, it is suitable for rail gun but not catapult. For example, EMALS uses super capacitor for 5% of energy absorbing but unrealistic in large amount due to its footprint. Fujian actually usese the flywheels to absorb the majority of energy in reverse to launching therefor saving the footprint. AC makes this arrangement impossible therefor it is the core of the problem.

All linear motors are AC driven, even in a DC grid like Fujian.

It will derail this thread if we go further deep about EM cat, arraster and power grid. But if you are interested in details, there is a dedicated thread in this forum.

 

[Michael90]

I have to say i have been surprised this was done so fast. Cant imagine how the PLAN will look like 10 years from now. Congrats to the chinese. This is really impressive. There is no way to even try and downplay this achievement like some are doing in comments sections on western articles or social media. Lol Nayway, there will alaaya be people like that. But they will only get smaller and smaller with each passing year as china keeps developing and industrialising even more. Not many can get used to seeing a new rising power.
The stronger China gets, the more peaceful Asia will be. Not saying this in an aggressive way, but more in a realpolitik way. Since when you are weak , you actually attract adversaries to get involved or attack you, since they believe the consequences are managerable or negligeable. Just like how Ukraine being weak and corrupt encouraged Russia to launch a full scale invasion since they thought victory could be easily achived with little consequences. Had Ukraine being a powerful militarised country like North Korea for example. Then Russia would have thought twice before doing that.

So to avoid war and keep peace you need a powerful military for dissuasion. China is still building just that against the US and her allies in the region...

 

[siegecrossbow]

Whats GJ-21?

Carrier capable GJ-11.

 

[Michael90]

Coming*. There's this jubilant atmosphere everywhere, but it's too early, yet.
China's carrier fleet (2 CV medium, 4 LHA - now, 1 CVA, 1 LHA/CVL - working up) isn't exactly equal to american (11 CVN , 9 LHA/LHD active, 1 CVN, 2 LHA working up). Even counting very generously, it's still not anywhere near the ratio Japan had v US at Marianas.

Until and unless PLAN can meet USN on even terms in open ocean, or until US and its chain of alliances will collapse, country will remain threatened by enemy aircraft carriers. It can be very well defended, but offensive threat didn't go anywhere.

Agree. Of course we all know the US navy is still way ahead of China. Especially in experience, capabiltiies, hardware etc etc. Plus there is no way China can challenge the US navy in open seas outside Chinas neighbourhood for now. Afterall, China is still a rising power and they are just started their military modernisation not too long ago, so they need time to catch up in alot of sectors. So far their achivements have been remarkable and will only continue. So i agree we shouldnt get too excited to the point of start thinking PLAN is ahead of the US navy.

However, the thing is, China doesnt need to challenge the US navy in open seas and China doesnt even want to. China is mainly focused on her immediate neighbourhood..to secure her sovereignty over Taiwan and SCS . The rest is not really Chinas issue and CCP has no intention of going against the US outside Asia this deacade.. maybe 20 to 30years from now when China has long secured her neigbourhood from the US then she will think of venturing in open seas to challenge the US if needed. However , i think it will mostly be to protect her sea lanes and trade, not really engaging the US. The stakes for both sides are too large to engage in open conflict. It will be more of a kenetic conflict and economic/technological war.

SO FOR NOW China only needs to make US intervention in the first island chain impossible . Once Chinas uncontested dominance in the first island chain is established. Then Chinas objectives would have been achieved. The rest is secoundary to China.