COMAC C919

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
....


So disregard the patent on the sub components? Which is exactly a major complaint of doing business in China. When things don’t go your way undercut and cheat.
Because it actually doesn’t need to be made in China unless it goes into Comac.
The COMAC was already partnering with Russia for future aircraft. And to find a market for it the Russians and Chinese if they intended to sell to nations under US and European sanctions would have needed to source alternative engines and components. Same if the PLA intended to use any C919 for replacing their B737s. Heck it was already basically laid out in the made in China scheme.

Oh come on! Yes disregarding patents is a bad show! BUT so is withholding supply contract to supply, and on what ground? It's breaking every rule in the world trade! But that's ok then. Terran!

You know as well as anyone here, the only reason to stop supply of the engine is to impede China's effort in developing it's own aircraft. Period!

And before you start backing this new policy. It will affect UK and France. Can you imagine what Washington will do if Beijing approach Rose Royce to supply engine? Just look at Huawei and HS2
 

Gatekeeper

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GE and China's AVIC to form avionics joint venture
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A model of the 150-seat C919 passenger plane is displayed at the Asian Aerospace Expo in Hong Kong September 8, 2009. REUTERS/Bobby Yip

BEIJING (Reuters) - General Electric Co (
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) and Aviation Industry Corp, a Chinese state-owned aircraft maker, agreed on Sunday to form an avionics joint venture that will have China’s booming commercial aircraft market as one of its main targets.

The initial focus of the venture would be to develop equipment for China’s planned C919 passenger jet, which will have at least 150 seats, said executives of GE, the world’s biggest maker of jet engines.

Government-backed Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China (COMAC) has said it expects the C919 to have its first test flight in 2014 with deliveries to customers starting in 2016.


“Our first priority will be to compete for the COMAC C919,” Lorraine Bolsinger, president and chief executive of GE’s Aviation Systems business, told reporters.

The partners said they aimed to set up the 50-50 venture by mid-2010, subject to regulatory approval.

Part of the JV, which will have its headquarters in China, will involve the creation of a technology center in Shanghai, where GE already carries out research and development.

Beijing merged its two state aircraft makers, AVIC I and AVIC II, in 2008 to pool resources for the jet project as it moves to wean itself from reliance on Boeing Co (
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) and Airbus EAD.PA.

“The Chinese civil aviation industry will likely, over the coming decades, be one of the biggest, if not the biggest, in the world,” Jeff Immelt, GE’s chief executive officer, said at a signing ceremony in Beijing.

As well as targeting the domestic market, the GE-AVIC venture said it would aim to sell into the global market, including the United States, where it will create 200 jobs.

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COMAC and Honeywell have been working together on the C919 program since COMAC was founded in 2008. Honeywell had worked with COMAC’s predecessor on the ARJ21 regional jet since the early 2000s, before that aircraft was taken over by COMAC when it was established. Honeywell has grown a local China team of more than 500 engineers, many of whom support the C919 program, in addition to hundreds of employees working from 20 sites across Asia, North America and Europe. Through the establishment of two joint ventures, Honeywell Boyun Aviation Systems (Hunan) Co. Ltd. and HonFei Flight Controls Technology Co. Ltd., Honeywell supplies carbon brakes and fly-by-wire flight control electronics, respectively.

Our friend Terran should take a look at this. It's a Joint venture that both parties have entered into and agreed.

Just because the USA is loosing in the "economic war" (Chinese name for western MSM term trade war, because it is an economic war). They can unilateral tear up agreements like all those with other countries.

Well if so, China can tear up agreements on patents. Etc. Both is after all, a legal undertaking by both parties. So you can't tear up one agreement and that's ok. But if the other party tears up the other agreement in turn. Our friend here throws a wobbly!
 

Gatekeeper

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I remember back when Obama was mulling over filing WTO complaints on China's domestic airline industry in order to kill it when there were still on the drawing table, China buying foreign components was to ease fears China was going completely domestic.

I suspect GE us sxxxxxxg a brick at the moment at the prospect of their future earning potentials.
 

Gatekeeper

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I had quoted @Hendrik_2000 who had proposed breaking IP to save the program. An act of desperation.
You say “when things were going the US’s way” yet China’s not exactly having sun shine and fluffy bunnies right now. The Epidemic has resulted in a lot of factories and Chinese based suppliers to but the breaks on deliveries with projected restarts in last I heard May. That’s not selling keeping the supply chains in China very well. The longer you have such things going the more you have industry looking to re-Shore.
The more Chinese factories are closed the harder this hits and more those firms start looking to Alternatives. Even bringing it home.

China needs the C919 more than the US side of things. Yeah everyone is picking on Boeing today yet they still make sales. Those backlogged 737s will still be sold.

Hard time? You need to have a word with IMF chief, I think she might disagree with you. Yes it has it's effects, but hard time is a big strong!
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Good thing China's airlines are state-owned. The PD-14 can have all the market confidence in the world with the stroke of a pen.


You are having such an r/selfawarewolves moment right now. All America has done since since it launched the trade war have been failed acts of desperation. I wish I could say that patent invalidation was a uniquely Chinese act, but it's something America regularly did when it was developing - along with, you know, slavery. Is there any evil left for anyone to commit that America hasn't already pioneered?


There are no alternatives.

Good post!
 

Gatekeeper

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As for "looking elsewhere," they might have to look in space because China's quality to price ratio is unbeatable in this world and is a resource for companies to be globally competitive. As for "bringing it home," hahaha, yeah, maybe if home is Thailand or Indonesia, not if home is the US.

Sometimes I do question some of our "educated" posters here. Where have they been living in the past 30 years? It's as though they have been living I an alternative universe!

When I used to work in industry as opposed to education. The buzz words was the "China price"! Meaning any quotes for pricing must be able to beat the Chinese.

China has moved on from cheap labour to efficiency in manufacturing in order to compete with other low wage economies. Which is why, even today, other low cost countries like Thailand, India etc still can't compete with China even though China has a higher wage rate.

Don't get me wrong, this advantage is not going to last. Which is why China is trying to move up the value chain. And Why the USA is trying to keep China from succeeding in this endeavour!
 

Chish

Junior Member
Registered Member
Honestly to me this is not a big deal.

I don't really have much faith in SOE's, and for me COMAC is a typical example of a failed SOE that sucked money out of the state and never built anything.

The plane is already five years late, delayed for at least another year, and has tons of problems reportedly. Nobody would have bought it anyways.

There are innovative top-quality Chinese companies that need to be defended with whatever weapons possible, such as Huawei. Then there are SOE albatrosses that suck up state money and resources and never produce anything. COMAC is the latter.

Oh well, maybe this will help GE go bankrupt.

Here's an overall summary of the effect of this in my view:

Previously - China unable to enter the civilian aviation business.
Now - China unable to enter the civilian aviation business.
But Trump don't think the way you think. If this project is such a total failure as you put it, He would not have to do anything. He is getting paranoid now because this project even at its present state have given China a very good high tech foundations in civil aviation which China didn't have before. This newly achieved technologies and with the experience of building the Y-20, Trump is starting to have nightmares. He do not want another potien competitor to Boeing. But he must act now, the longer he wait, the more time he is giving China. China already got the hint of his intention.
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
The problem with civilian FBW/FCS isn't so much the technology rather than fulfilling certification requirements in general and for software in particular. Safety standards are higher than military (there is no ejection seat to fall back on as a last resort) but accommodating those on the hardware side with higher redundancy is not rocket science... if you do your homework *cough* 737MAX *cough*. On the other hand, the software not only has to meet requirements, it has to have been developed according to a prescribed process with rigorous documentation requirements. If it wasn't, it automatically isn't admissible - Airbus fell into that trap with the A400M FADEC software, which worked fine but had to be re-written in its entirety because the *development process* did not satisfy civilian requirements.

Why on earth the A400M needs civilian certification in the first place is a case study in nonsensical spec writing, but we digress. The point is that substituting a new, Chinese domestic FCS at the eleventh hour is not a quick fix, even though the industry probably has all the required technology. I would not be surprised if the decision to tackle the 737MAX pitch-up tendency at high-AoA with the ill-advised MCAS band-aid to its conventional FCS rather than developing a full FBW system was motivated by this (time pressure due to the A320Neo having a lead).
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I though the decide using western avionic to increase the sale appeal to the western airlines eventually. Since they are more comfortable with western supplier and easier logistic. They already using more or less the same sub component and familiar with operation practice etc.

So in other word more of marketing tactic than engineering requirement China has ton of software engineer and geek and nerd type So writing software shouldnot be a problem Plus they have ton of experience with program like ARj 21 and C 919.

i have no doubt there will be delay But it is a bit to late to shut off the program I understand they plan to certify CJ1000 sometime in 2021
 
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