COMAC C919

Gloire_bb said:

Even product with large home market has to be competitive enough, since airlines aren't toothless.

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But if the producer is disciplined, and fully capture the economy of scale opportunities afforded by s large semi-captive home market, then the home market would be a big advantage.

However, the producer could be indolent and grow fat on a captive home market and thus actually reduce its conpetitivess abroad.

Best photo of C919, though it's old.

Richard Santos said:

No, but it does bring the economy of scale generated by first filling about 600 domestic orders in china to the table.

Bombardier has 20 deliveries and competitors who sold about 10000 b737s and now sell b737s below bombardier's cost. No hope of economy of scale there.

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With an expected introduction date of >2020, I doubt that a lower cost would give the C919 any sort of leverage against its 737/A320 competitors.

Bombardier has received over 200+ orders for its CSeries alone. Given the reputation and history of their products, the CS100/300 have a far greater chance of breaking into the international market than the C919.

How many Chinese parts were in the first Chinese HSR? One step at a time, start with project management, which is incredibly complex for an airliner, and then gradually indigenize parts. Commercial aircraft engines represent the pinnacle of human technology, only when a nation has reached such pinnacle can it be made. It'll be decades before China can make a comparable engine to the best from GE.

visitant said:

You obviously misunderstand the cooperation between COMAC and Bombardier, their earlier statements explicitly told us the main purpose is bringing down cost by sharing some common subsystem/cockpit design/supporting adn service standards. I wouldnot call that "coalition", it just shows these two new comers know how difficult to survive in this segment of market duopoly by B737 and A320.

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Which is what I essentially outlined earlier. The two jets will share common parts and/or designs to give both companies an easier entry into the global airliner market.

dingyibvs said:

How many Chinese parts were in the first Chinese HSR? One step at a time, start with project management, which is incredibly complex for an airliner, and then gradually indigenize parts. Commercial aircraft engines represent the pinnacle of human technology, only when a nation has reached such pinnacle can it be made. It'll be decades before China can make a comparable engine to the best from GE.

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Yes, the C919 is an important step towards building a truly competitive airliner, but that isn't without its hurdles. The C929 project will be entirely hinged on the success of the CJ2000 turbofan engine.

Richard Santos said:

But if the producer is disciplined, and fully capture the economy of scale opportunities afforded by s large semi-captive home market, then the home market would be a big advantage.

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Obviously, it will.
But if the plane is bad enough(supported bad enough, lack of second market opportunities wasn't compensated well enough, requires them to establish completely new supply chains, etc) - domestic lines will fight back.
And hurting them is akin to sacrificing much larger, healthier and wealthier industry in favor of sick one.

SinoSoldier said:

Make no mistake; C919 isn't a Chinese endeavor. It's an American/European endeavor assembled by the Chinese, with the help of Bombardier.

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Well, gaining knowledge and experience to put all components together, no matter the origin of the components, and make it work, especially it is a big commercial passenger plane, is still something that worth celebration and making people exciting and feeling proud, isn't it?

SinoSoldier said:

The deal extends beyond marketing. The MoU covers flight tests, common parts, training, and marketing, split into two phases.

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Having the C919 licensed in Europe opens the doors for potential export but does not guarantee it in any way.

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Well it doesn't say so Read it carefully common part pertaining to section 1 which is all about testing even that it qualified further by saying pertaining to non flying task.
It is sound like about working together in marketing, customer service and publication etc NO BIG DEAL
It has zero collaboration in technical field as I guess

The four initiatives COMAC and Bombardier will collaborate on are: 1) specific areas of theCSeries aircraft flight test activities pertaining to non-flying tasks, 2) implementing and maintaining the common items that were achieved as part of Phase I, 3) sales and marketing, and 4) certain areas of customer services related to training, technical publications and parts distribution.

The second phase of COMAC and Bombardier's cooperation is expected to contribute further to enhancing the competitiveness of not only the C919 and CSeries aircraft programs, but also of both COMAC and Bombardier’s overall businesses, and will help with maximizing both parties’ cost savings and market shares, while allowing customers of the C919 and the CSeries commercial airliners to realize cost benefits from the operation of both aircraft families.

Richard Santos said:

But if the producer is disciplined, and fully capture the economy of scale opportunities afforded by s large semi-captive home market, then the home market would be a big advantage.

However, the producer could be indolent and grow fat on a captive home market and thus actually reduce its conpetitivess abroad.

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I don't believe that will happened . We just have to look at the HSR progression. Started with licensing the German and Japanese design. Then slowly do the component substitution with domestic product. Then improve on the original design of HSR and passed it as Chinese design. Further elimination of imported component. R&D on the next much improved design
Bid on overseas project !

Mirroring the Japanese auto industry experience in 60's and 70's. Japan too during that time close the domestic market from import. They don't get fat and lazy