Chinese UAV/UCAV development

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latenlazy

Brigadier
Taiwan simply lack the strategic depth to necessitate deep strike capabilities. Any high value targets in Taiwan would be covered by cruise and ballistic missiles and the sheer volume of firepower the PLA would pour at Taiwan in the event of war would quite simply overload and quickly smash Taiwan's air defences if they tried to hold the line.

The Sharp Sword lacks the speed and reliability to be relied upon as a first strike weapon for high value targets deep in Taiwan. But if used as part of a second wave follow-on strike force, there wouldn't be enough of Taiwan's AD network left intact and operational to warrant full aspect stealth. Besides, as I said earlier, UCAVs are expendable assets, in that respect, it would be better for enemy AD to pick up on the UCAVs and engage them, thus revealing their own location rather than for manned aircraft to find out the hard way that there are AD assets let operational in the area later if the UCAVs were too stealthy for those AD assets to even realise they were overhead.

Similarly, Japan and other potential targets like Okinawa and Guam lack real strategic depth. They are far away, but they Ware mainly isolated and small islands and there are no supporting bases from which land based radar might get a peek at the aft of incoming Sharp Swords before they turn for home for the RCS spikes there to matter.

As you mentioned, there is also an issue with range when it comes to most of those bases, and in most scenarios, strikes against those targets would be carried out by cruise missiles rather than UCAVs (unless they are carrier based).

As for ASEAN, well with no disrespect intended towards them, but they are hardly the kind of opponents the PLA would really need to specifically tailor its procurement strategy to defeat. I seriously doubt they are even considered when drawing up requirements for future PLA weapons.
By this point in the discussion I was simply arguing the case for a deep strike role, since I already pointed out that the Lijian probably isn't intended for that purpose.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with your assessment with how the PLA would deal with Taiwan. While that's certainly the standard outlook and I'm not in disagreement with it, as the PLA's capabilities advance, they may opt for a more surgical strategy to minimize collateral and make the politics of a forceful reunification easier. That's where deep strike capabilities may come in hand.

With regards to Japan, I'm not entirely sure that we can assume radars will solely be looking outward. In a heightened conflict environment, I think as much effort would be placed into looking inward, especially given an assumption of stealth capabilities, so that aft signatures become important for the penetration aspect of a mission. If China does not develop VLO platforms with some emphasis on aft signal returns, that may very well become something opponents could deliberately try to plan around and exploit.

Finally, I think the strategic considerations for ASEAN (and India) can change very quickly depending on the US's role in the region. My general inclination is that things won't go south and escalate to the level where those threats become real, but the job of militaries is to assess long term improbabilities.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
By this point in the discussion I was simply arguing the case for a deep strike role, since I already pointed out that the Lijian probably isn't intended for that purpose.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with your assessment with how the PLA would deal with Taiwan. While that's certainly the standard outlook and I'm not in disagreement with it, as the PLA's capabilities advance, they may opt for a more surgical strategy to minimize collateral and make the politics easier. That's where deep strike capabilities may come in hand.

In any case, I think the strategic considerations for ASEAN (and India) can change very quickly depending on the US's role in the region. My general inclination is that things won't go south and escalate to the level where those threats become real, but the job of militaries is to assess long term improbabilities.

Well I think we have a difference of opinion on the nature and role of stealthy UCAVs. In my book, stealthy UCAVs are cheap front line bomb trucks. They are intended to hit medium to low value targets in moderately defended areas. I think of them as reusable cruise missiles for targets that are not worth using an actual cruise missile for, but which are in areas too risky for manned conventional strikers.

If there are high value targets deep in enemy territory you need hitting, far better to send a cruise missiles. Your chances of killing that target is better than with a stealthy UCAV, and the cost per strike works out cheaper than if you lost a few UCAVs trying to take out the target.

A war with Taiwan is not going to be a replay of the Gulf War I, where the majority of the action takes place in the air. Don't get me wrong, air strikes would be a central part of the mission, but unlike the US and coalition forces in Iraq, China does not have the luxury of time, and will be fighting against the clock. In addition, it would be all but impossible for air strikes alone to achieve China's goals.

In that regard, China cannot afford to methodically take Taiwan's forces apart over a course of weeks and months before proceeding to the ground war. Because of that, collateral damage and cost efficiency and even casualty rates becomes a distant secondary concern.

Thus, the aim of the PLAAF is not to delicately pick apart Taiwan's defences, but rather to smash down the barn door with maximum prejudice and in the minimal time possible. If there are high value targets behind the lines, they will be overkilled by cruise and ballistic missiles because China cannot afford the time to be precious with its munitions and waste the time to have multiple tries to kill the same target.

The likes of the Sharp Sword will be used to fly into the teeth of Taiwan's front line to take out the air defences and clear the beaches for the PLA amphibious forces, or at the very least soften them up for the manned strikers coming in after them. As such, it would be better for an enemy SAM to go up the tailpipe of a Sharp Sword heading for home after it had dropped all its munitions than for that same SAM to go into the intake of a manned striker still with all its bombs onboard.

As for ASEAN, while it is true that militarise need to try and cover as many bases as possible, the reality is that defence budgets are finite so while militarise will develop scenarios for all sorts of improbable situations, they will only spend their limited R&D and procurement budgets on likely threats. In that regard, an ASEAN with modern AD systems that needs full all aspect stealth is too remote a possibility to carry much weight. In addition, ASEAN is too far away to be of significant concern for China. They can have the best air defences in the world, but that doesn't really matter to China because they are too far away to be able to threaten the Chinese mainland from their own soil.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Well I think we have a difference of opinion on the nature and role of stealthy UCAVs. In my book, stealthy UCAVs are cheap front line bomb trucks. They are intended to hit medium to low value targets in moderately defended areas. I think of them as reusable cruise missiles for targets that are not worth using an actual cruise missile for, but which are in areas too risky for manned conventional strikers.

If there are high value targets deep in enemy territory you need hitting, far better to send a cruise missiles. Your chances of killing that target is better than with a stealthy UCAV, and the cost per strike works out cheaper than if you lost a few UCAVs trying to take out the target.

A war with Taiwan is not going to be a replay of the Gulf War I, where the majority of the action takes place in the air. Don't get me wrong, air strikes would be a central part of the mission, but unlike the US and coalition forces in Iraq, China does not have the luxury of time, and will be fighting against the clock. In addition, it would be all but impossible for air strikes alone to achieve China's goals.

In that regard, China cannot afford to methodically take Taiwan's forces apart over a course of weeks and months before proceeding to the ground war. Because of that, collateral damage and cost efficiency and even casualty rates becomes a distant secondary concern.

Thus, the aim of the PLAAF is not to delicately pick apart Taiwan's defences, but rather to smash down the barn door with maximum prejudice and in the minimal time possible. If there are high value targets behind the lines, they will be overkilled by cruise and ballistic missiles because China cannot afford the time to be precious with its munitions and waste the time to have multiple tries to kill the same target.

The likes of the Sharp Sword will be used to fly into the teeth of Taiwan's front line to take out the air defences and clear the beaches for the PLA amphibious forces, or at the very least soften them up for the manned strikers coming in after them. As such, it would be better for an enemy SAM to go up the tailpipe of a Sharp Sword heading for home after it had dropped all its munitions than for that same SAM to go into the intake of a manned striker still with all its bombs onboard.

As for ASEAN, while it is true that militarise need to try and cover as many bases as possible, the reality is that defence budgets are finite so while militarise will develop scenarios for all sorts of improbable situations, they will only spend their limited R&D and procurement budgets on likely threats. In that regard, an ASEAN with modern AD systems that needs full all aspect stealth is too remote a possibility to carry much weight. In addition, ASEAN is too far away to be of significant concern for China. They can have the best air defences in the world, but that doesn't really matter to China because they are too far away to be able to threaten the Chinese mainland from their own soil.
I think you're probably right about our difference of opinion. I see UCAVs, with their cheaper per unit costs, better VLO capabilities, and zero pilot risks having the significant potential to replace or at least greatly augment current deep strike platforms for high value targets. In addition, there are other upsides to using stealthy UAVs for deep penetration missions, such as clandestine surveillance, and multiple strike payloads. In that sense, tail section signals management is something that China will have an interest in developing, even if it's not implemented in every design.

While I agree with your assessment on Taiwan on the near term, I'm increasingly doubting the utility of current assessments on how China would go about with an invasion. Barring unforeseen circumstances, the issue clearly will not budge from the status quo for a while, and when it finally does move, the security situation across the Strait and in East Asia could look significantly different. If the conflict were to occur today, China would have every incentive to, as you said, knock down the barn door with extreme prejudice. I wonder if that will remain true twenty or thirty years from now.

Final word on ASEAN. They're going to be the next set of emerging markets with increasing buying power, and depending on the future security situation collective defence initiatives are not out of the question. I do not think any of the ASEAN countries would be the aggressor in a conflict with China. China would have to stir that pot if it's to happen, and while the possibility is VERY remote, I wouldn't be surprised if the capabilities are eventually developed anyways.

A lot of my assertions about the need for an unmanned deep strike platform are predicated on hypothetical changes to the current security environment, so in that sense they may not very useful in assessing current developments in China's UAV technologies. That said, I'd like to think I'm posing interesting questions about how we understand what the PLA's future capability needs will be, and where China's UAV developments may go as a result. I think we've both said all we could on this particular topic. Thanks for indulging me.
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
IR reduction measures come with thrust penalties. I wonder if they've simply decided not to incur those penalties during the testing phase, maybe because of the engine problem.

I could be wring but I don't believe so.. I think what you see now is pretty much going to be 99.9% what it'll actually look like in production. To reshape, elongate and taper the airframe and engine mounts to basically hide the entire engine and revent the exhaust would require a significant reeginnering and make it 'almost' an entirely new aircraft altogether.
 

Deino

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:confused::p:eek:
 

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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I think that's the history of official models in China. Look at the Y-20 model... assuming that was an official model. But at least you can get some basic info if it is official.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Then the model shows a mature prototype of the aircraft.

Or they just got a few of the details wrong...

I'm curious as to why we think this is an official model? We knew the model of Y-20 was official because they had one sitting in a photo with one of the lead engineer's desks or something.

This is just a random model.
 
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