Chinese UAV/UCAV development

by78 said:

Brochures from the 2020 Changchun International UAV Expo. I did some rough translation where needed. Please feel free to correct and add to it.

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This feels so Skynet.

Tam said:

This feels so Skynet.

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More from the Changchun International UAV Expo.

During the tests, drones were released from truck-based, 48-unit launchers and from airborne helicopters. The drones were rapidly and simultaneously deployed while the transport platforms were on the move, and the system can launch as many as 200 drones in one go, the report said.

After being released, the drones switched between different formations and conducted reconnaissance and attack missions on ground targets, the report said, noting that the drones look similar to China's domestically made CH-901, which is about 1.2 meters long, has a top speed of 150 kilometers an hour and a combat radius of 15 kilometers. Also known as a loitering munition, this kind of drone functions just like a normal drone in reconnaissance missions, but can turn itself into a cruise missile and launch suicide attacks when it receives the order.

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KenC said:

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It would seem that only recently has drone swarms become economically feasible. These should do great on the LAC against Indians, it'll be just like those Azerbaijan drone videos.

@shanlung haha

by78 said:

Brochures from the 2020 Changchun International UAV Expo. I did some rough translation where needed. Please feel free to correct and add to it.

Click to expand...

I can't read it because it is both blurry and my Chinese is not great. However, the Harwar EMS drone, what the heck is it carrying? Looks like apples. Are they supposed to be first aid kits or something? I can only read something about being a top police equipment maker.

KevinG said:

You are over estimating the system. Look at what going on with Armenia and Azerbaijan. They use drones to target soldiers directly. If we say $10k for one man’s life, is it still too expensive?

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Interesting and totally valid point. I think the pay of an average NATO private is $25,000 (US Army is much lower). I was told that total investment in a soldier's boot camp training and kit is something like $50,000 (Again, NATO standards). So from what you pointed out, probably it is not unreasonable from that measure.

Although, as pointed out by @plawolf, artillery is much cheaper.

Which kind of brings it back to the idea of smart mines.
As a lifecycle advantage, they would be easier to clear as well. Think of the cost of UXO/after-conflict mine clearance both in dollars and human life.

supersnoop said:

I can't read it because it is both blurry and my Chinese is not great. However, the Harwar EMS drone, what the heck is it carrying? Looks like apples. Are they supposed to be first aid kits or something? I can only read something about being a top police equipment maker.



Interesting and totally valid point. I think the pay of an average NATO private is $25,000 (US Army is much lower). I was told that total investment in a soldier's boot camp training and kit is something like $50,000 (Again, NATO standards). So from what you pointed out, probably it is not unreasonable from that measure.

Although, as pointed out by @plawolf, artillery is much cheaper.

Which kind of brings it back to the idea of smart mines.
As a lifecycle advantage, they would be easier to clear as well. Think of the cost of UXO/after-conflict mine clearance both in dollars and human life.

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Havwar actually has a section on their website dedicated to Tomahawk UAV modules. I think the red balls are either for fire fighting or tear gas bombs for crowd disposal, can't remember which.

There are actually heaps of non-military payload modules for that UAV.

supersnoop said:

I can't read it because it is both blurry and my Chinese is not great. However, the Harwar EMS drone, what the heck is it carrying? Looks like apples. Are they supposed to be first aid kits or something? I can only read something about being a top police equipment maker.



Interesting and totally valid point. I think the pay of an average NATO private is $25,000 (US Army is much lower). I was told that total investment in a soldier's boot camp training and kit is something like $50,000 (Again, NATO standards). So from what you pointed out, probably it is not unreasonable from that measure.

Although, as pointed out by @plawolf, artillery is much cheaper.

Which kind of brings it back to the idea of smart mines.
As a lifecycle advantage, they would be easier to clear as well. Think of the cost of UXO/after-conflict mine clearance both in dollars and human life.

Click to expand...

That may be the military's investment into a human soldier but lets not forget that the military also externalizes costs onto the rest of society. Lots of investment went into raising/developing that person. Also a soldier in high risk is likely to be in the prime of their life with much value potential to society. A human life is actually quite valuable to civil society from a pure economic point of view. Eliminating a human reduces strategic capabilities.

Just some rough numbers here: the statistical value of life in the US is about $8-10 million in the context of a society. If we take a micro view of a person in a particular context their value is limited, taking a broad view increases their value, especially in a developed society. Lives are highly valuable to a developed society, these are not just potential factory workers but innovators, scientists and business people. As China gets wealthier it will make greater sense to increase the use of robots in both civil and military contexts. Sacrificing a human is sacrificing a lot of future potential and displaces others in the civilian sphere to support military activities. Generally a military budget of over 5% of GDP will start having significant distorting effects on the civilian economy.


In the greater scheme of things, it is exponentially cheaper to use seemingly costly unmanned systems in high risk environments than it is to use a humans. With the proliferation of these systems, it will only get cheaper. In a war of attrition costs are in the social context. For tactical victories it can be a different story but it seems unmanned systems are overtaking humans in many functions as well.

^Somehow I doubt that a private earning $25,000 a year is likely to become a scientist or business owner.

banjex said:

^Somehow I doubt that a private earning $25,000 a year is likely to become a scientist or business owner.

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Hey don’t knock it till you tried it! If you are young, it’s “easy money”. Easy in the sense that the job is basically guaranteed. Put in a 3 year contract, earn some money for school. Come out at 20, go to school, still employable at 24. If you are clever enough, get the country to pay for school as well, but you trade for a few more years on the hook.

Non-NATO example, Singaporeans have to do National Service.

Anyway back on topic...

Temstar said:

Havwar actually has a section on their website dedicated to Tomahawk UAV modules. I think the red balls are either for fire fighting or tear gas bombs for crowd disposal, can't remember which.

There are actually heaps of non-military payload modules for that UAV.

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I find this even more skynet-ish than the UAVs with guns. I wonder if such drones will revolutionize crowd control. Right now, riot control is more reactionary or in the case of proactive crowd control, heavy handed. Could “black bloc” type protestors have a tear gas bomb or bean bag dropped on them before they cause trouble?