Chinese Swords

shen

shen

Senior Member
PanAsian said:
That is very much an untrue generalization and I would suggest you do some independent research on Chinese swords.
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My knowledge is admittedly superficial, but that is the overall impression I get.
The double edge jian stop been an important battlefield weapon after the Han dynasty. It was still carried by officers, but mainly as a ceremonial weapon. Jian continued to be favored as civilian weapon of course.
The single edge dao became the dominant form of battlefield sword in China. But both were probably secondary arms on battlefield compare to pole arm and bow/crossbow.

In Europe (less true for Eastern Europe)on the other hand you have the long line of battlefield double edge swords from Roman spatha, viking sword, to knight arming sword and long sword. Unlike in China, double edge swords were the dominant form of battlefield sword in Europe until musket with bayonet replaced infantry sword and Eastern influenced sabre became the dominant cavalry sword.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Equation said:
Nice explanation TE, well done. Now what about the Arabian scimitar sword?
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A couple of roots for that starting with the Greek Makhaira, A large single edge blade similar to the Kopls but lacking the forward curve. ( The sword sued by Leonidas in the movie the 300).
There large size made them fair Cavalry swords. as they transitioned to steel and as the Moguls invaded the influences of Chinese swords worked there way in and the Blade grew longer and curved eventually evolving into a number of types including the Kilij,Talwar, Pulwar, Shamshar,Shotel and Nimcha
 
shen

shen

Senior Member
TerraN_EmpirE said:
Shen you have to remember that dispute the popular image European Swords were more then just knives. And there was one major factor in Europe that was not as large a one in Asia. Plate Armor. Lamellar armor was the armor of Choice for asia it started in the middle east and spread as far as Japan it's made of small metal plates with layers of leather and steel and bambo and more. It works a bit like fish scales to give cover via interlocking plates

In Europe they started along the same line but for some reason rather then going with it. They went Iron man using larger higher density angled Plate armor. Sword makers in Europe had to contend with a different defense needing a different offence.
Using a Cutting edge against Lamellar you might be able to find a gap and make a kill. but against plate steel it's steel on steel and chances of breaking the enemy armor are the same as breaking your own sword.

-cut to save space-
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Terran, I was thinking along similar line as you, perhaps the difference in armor is the answer. But I was think more about mail armor (popular in Europe but not in China), which is resistant to cuts but vulnerable to thrusts from sharp pointed sword. But on the other hand, lamellar armor were also very cut resistant, so why the move to Chinese single edge sword? Then you have Arab/Muslim armies that used mail armor very extensively but also used single edge type sword.
Full plate armor is a late medieval development in Europe, so that doesn't really explain about a thousand years history of preferred type of sword in Europe.

Chinese_swords.jpg


If you look at this chart of sword pattern development in China, you can see that early Chinese single edge sword (dao) have what looks like very strong tips that looks like they would be good at piercing lamellar type armor.
 
P

PanAsian

Major
shen said:
My knowledge is admittedly superficial, but that is the overall impression I get.
The double edge jian stop been an important battlefield weapon after the Han dynasty. It was still carried by officers, but mainly as a ceremonial weapon. Jian continued to be favored as civilian weapon of course.
The single edge dao became the dominant form of battlefield sword in China. But both were probably secondary arms on battlefield compare to pole arm and bow/crossbow.

In Europe (less true for Eastern Europe)on the other hand you have the long line of battlefield double edge swords from Roman spatha, viking sword, to knight arming sword and long sword. Unlike in China, double edge swords were the dominant form of battlefield sword in Europe until musket with bayonet replaced infantry sword and Eastern influenced sabre became the dominant cavalry sword.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Both Terran Empire's post and part of your post just now addressed most of the points I was going to make regarding how your original post, framing of the question, and use of the term "sword" being vague and inconsistent. So I am surprised you are trying to ask the same convoluted question again, as answers are readily apparent if you break out the multiple aspects of the topic.

I would question your assumption that the Western European equivalent of "jian" was as commonly used as you think. As to why Chinese and Western European melee weapons development didn't both follow the path of variations of straight double-edged "sword"s I can only guess at cultural influences and luck of the draw.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Well You have to also Consider the influences of the Culture and there roots. the most common sword of Early Europe was the Roman Gladiolus It spread near and far from Italy to Germany and Scotland. the second early and advanced maker of European swords was the Vikings.
Materials is a critical factor as well European steel is not the same as Chinese and Vice verse
 
shen

shen

Senior Member
PanAsian said:
Both Terran Empire's post and part of your post just now addressed most of the points I was going to make regarding how your original post, framing of the question, and use of the term "sword" being vague and inconsistent. So I am surprised you are trying to ask the same convoluted question again, as answers are readily apparent if you break out the multiple aspects of the topic.

I would question your assumption that the Western European equivalent of "jian" was as commonly used as you think. As to why Chinese and Western European melee weapons development didn't both follow the path of variations of straight double-edged "sword"s I can only guess at cultural influences and luck of the draw.
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uh, what is inconsistent about my usage of the term sword? Chinese distinguish between the single edge sword as dao and double edge sword as jian. but in English, both types are simply sword. so i don't understand what is your problem.
 
P

PanAsian

Major
shen said:
uh, what is inconsistent about my usage of the term sword? Chinese distinguish between the single edge sword as dao and double edge sword as jian. but in English, both types are simply sword. so i don't understand what is your problem.
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When you use the term "sword"s in that context then the proper equivalent term is "dao jian" rather than just one or the other.
 
Brumby

Brumby

Major
PanAsian said:
When you use the term "sword"s in that context then the proper equivalent term is "dao jian" rather than just one or the other.
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It is very clear in meaning between "dao" and "jian" if used in context of Chinese usage of the word. The problem is when you want to discuss "sword" and relate it to European development. I think one has to make up the mind what you want to discuss, Chinese or European sword development? If you interchange the conversion between the two, you will end up with a circular problem. So stick to your terms of reference.
 
shen

shen

Senior Member
From the website Lezt linked to earlier. This is what the author has to say about the transition from jian to dao.

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"This switch by the Chinese military from double-edged swords (jian) to single-edged swords (dao) during the Han Dynasty was prompted by the extensive use of Chinese cavalry in combat against proto-Mongol nomads. In mounted warfare, slashing/chopping actions were more important than thrusting. However, the jian remained and continued to be used throughout the various dynasties by civilians, and selectively by generals, who strapped on the jian as a symbol of their rank. It seems that there was, however, a resurgence in the use of the jian as a military weapon during the Song Dynasty."

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he has photo of Han dynasty long bronze dao. This is a very interesting transitional specimen that is dao but still constructed with technique of bronze jian. This is pretty amazing, never knew such long and slender bronze sword were made.
 
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