Chinese Soft Power and Media Discussion and Updates

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Even when Japanese was almost close to total US gdp, very few people actually learned japanese. The reason is simple. People try to learn a language if they think they can migrate to that country and have a better life.

English is popular because people want to migrate to english speaking countries. This is because English speaking countries are rich, have lots of good paying jobs and also lax immigration laws. This goal defines all aspects of english learning focus in many poor developing countries.

Korean and Japanese can never be popular around the world because of their much smaller economy and lack of ability to host educated migrants.

Chinese language will not be popular until China becomes a rich country in nominal terms with GDP per capita atleast reaching UK, France levels. Once that happens and there is enough job demand for immigrants, you will see a bigger uptick in students coming in and also learning Chinese as second language in various countries.
It isn’t that immigrants don't want to come, it is China doesn't let them in. China punches way above its weight for a country with 14k GDP per capita. Social indicators and infrastructure are more like a country with 2x that, in tier 1s easily 3x or 4x that. Even then, China guards against immigrants as hard as Japan does.

It was very hard for foreigners to even come to China as a tourist, let alone stay in China long term, up until like 2 years ago. Not just legal barriers or language barriers but the IT entire ecosystem isn't set up for foreigners. This was a huge problem from 2015-2023 when China went cashless but the forex infrastructure wasn't in place.
 

tamsen_ikard

Senior Member
Registered Member
It isn’t that immigrants don't want to come, it is China doesn't let them in. China punches way above its weight for a country with 14k GDP per capita. Social indicators and infrastructure are more like a country with 2x that, in tier 1s easily 3x or 4x that. Even then, China guards against immigrants as hard as Japan does.

It was very hard for foreigners to even come to China as a tourist, let alone stay in China long term, up until like 2 years ago. Not just legal barriers or language barriers but the IT entire ecosystem isn't set up for foreigners. This was a huge problem from 2015-2023 when China went cashless but the forex infrastructure wasn't in place.
I think China will probably allow more migrants as it gets richer and the involution is replaced by labor shortages. There is still surplus labor in China. Job is scarce.

If there is more prosperity in China in the future, there will be a huge requirement for more service jobs. Chinese people also prefer those higher tier jobs anyway. So, there will be demand for bringing in foreigners to do low paying blue collar work.
 

4Tran

Junior Member
Registered Member
There's a few countries with true soft power, as in, foreigners will fight for them, donate money to them, etc for free.

In fact by this metric, China has far more soft power than South Korea. There are Africans and Asians who went to war for Chinese ideologies like Maoism. Has even a single person went to war for Korean ideology?
I agree that this kind of pull exists, but I'd posit that it doesn't come from soft power and it's quite far from what most people would think of as soft power.

On the other point, I also agree that South Korea's soft power is actually quite fragile. It's very one note and it just doesn't have much influence on real world behavior.
 

TPenglake

Junior Member
Registered Member
I agree with everything, especially the point about society, because China truly has huge problems with this, the so-called "problems of social morality" in China, due to rapid urbanization and a lag in the development of social behavior. I'm not a scientist, I'm just someone who works in the entertainment industry in China, and in my personal experience, 80% of people leave China precisely because of "low moral character" (that is, low moral character, not in the sense of being robbed on the street like in Barcelona, but in social interactions). Japan is good for its manners, but terrible for foreigners in terms of integration into society. China readily accepts foreigners, and they can become part of the community within a year, but the everyday environment is difficult for newcomers to adapt to. Slurping, spitting, loud conversations, chaotic driving, and trash don't add to the appeal. Yes, I didn’t describe Paris, they have the same problems, but China is not France, and it must somehow improve the quality of its citizens, as they did in Singapore.
Have you been to China recently or watched tourist videos on China? Maybe up until 2019 you might've been right, but Chinese people don't really engage in that kind of behavior anymore. A lot of folks going to China as part of the visa free travel agreements have said as much.
 

Amistrophy

New Member
Registered Member
I agree with everything, especially the point about society, because China truly has huge problems with this, the so-called "problems of social morality" in China, due to rapid urbanization and a lag in the development of social behavior. I'm not a scientist, I'm just someone who works in the entertainment industry in China, and in my personal experience, 80% of people leave China precisely because of "low moral character" (that is, low moral character, not in the sense of being robbed on the street like in Barcelona, but in social interactions). Japan is good for its manners, but terrible for foreigners in terms of integration into society. China readily accepts foreigners, and they can become part of the community within a year, but the everyday environment is difficult for newcomers to adapt to. Slurping, spitting, loud conversations, chaotic driving, and trash don't add to the appeal. Yes, I didn’t describe Paris, they have the same problems, but China is not France, and it must somehow improve the quality of its citizens, as they did in Singapore.

I mostly stick to T1 and NT1 cities, and in the past single week I've observed people

- lots of spitting , after clearing their throats loudly (saw a old uncle spit a massive glob on someone's parked moped too : )))))) )
- Peeing on a busy sidewalk
- Driving down the wrong way of a new and well paved 6 lane road
- Minimal turn signal usage and poor general traffic etiquette even for a large city
- Egregious line cutting and not letting others off the subway first
- Smoking while walking in busy thoroughfares
- Smoking indoors in packed public spaces in no smoking areas
- smoking in busy entry and exit areas
- lighting fires on a street corner at night

Basically, unless I'm on my university campus, or somewhere else the average age is <40yrs, I can't expect a decent sense of civility.

The younger generation is great with few exceptions.

Many other, older Chinese basically thrive off treating other Chinese people and public+private spaces like absolute shit. ie. not so great.

Yes, part of it has to be poverty, overpopulation, etc, but there are countries which are currently poorer with better civic sense.
 
Last edited:

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
All those ugly things about Chinese and yet China is the second most powerful country in the world and threatening to take the number one position from the US. See... soft power is irrelevant because it didn't make a difference in stopping China. So what's soft power worth again? Yes the people who value soft power still can't explain what does one get from it if you have it? I certainly have no desire to be Korean.
 

Heliox

Junior Member
Registered Member
I mostly stick to T1 and NT1 cities, and in the past single week I've observed people

- lighting fires on a street corner at night

JC wept. You have no clue do you?
Not that I totally disagree with your observations but this kinda makes me question the colour of the lens you are viewing the below observations ...

I spend a lot of time in China, across various tier cities. My observation is that things in context look very different

I mostly stick to T1 and NT1 cities, and in the past single week I've observed people

- lots of spitting , after clearing their throats loudly (saw a old uncle spit a massive glob on someone's parked moped too : )))))) )
- Peeing on a busy sidewalk

I honestly have not seen a single case of peeing in public (toddlers not withstanding).
Spitting, yes, but they generally aim for the drains and usually it's the old codgers.

- Driving down the wrong way of a new and well paved 6 lane road
- Minimal turn signal usage and poor general traffic etiquette even for a large city
Slow trucks and various stuff road hogging the left (fast) lane, up. Farm machinery, yup.
Driving down the wrong direction of a highway? Nah.
Driving down the wrong direction of a deserted road? Yup, seen plenty.

Traffic in China cities can be quite wild, by western standards. Coming from South East Asia though, I find it "normal". Yes, there is generally no right of way given but then again, there is no road rage-aggro just because someone squeezed into the gap you did not leave for them.

- Egregious line cutting and not letting others off the subway first

I've only been in Shanghai, Guangzhou and Chengdu metro.
Can't say I've seen this happen that frequently. It's quite civilised but road rules apply (see above). You leave a gap in the line and people will just flow past you.
Can't say it's any worse (in fact, I'll say it's better) than the Tube, Métro or the NYC Subway in terms of line cutting and not letting people off.

- Smoking while walking in busy thoroughfares
- Smoking indoors in packed public spaces in no smoking areas
- smoking in busy entry and exit areas

Ah ... absolutely no f**ks given. My favourite photo of China is a middle-age uncle, in a small T3 local cafe, sitting directly under a no smoking sign happily puffing away.

Basically, unless I'm on my university campus, or somewhere else the average age is <40yrs, I can't expect a decent sense of civility.

The younger generation is great with few exceptions.

Many other, older Chinese basically thrive off treating other Chinese people and public+private spaces like absolute shit. ie. not so great.

Yes, part of it has to be poverty, overpopulation, etc, but there are countries which are currently poorer with better civic sense.

My 2c ...

All large population, metropolis, big cities are similar to a large extent.
The sheer number of people in dense urban environment usually leads to pressure on space that translates into different behaviour. High population levels also generally pushes society to become more competitive (for simple living activities) and therefore move at a much faster pace. Take for instance Indians, they walk in the middle of the street (due to sheer press of humanity) but they don't get offended if you toot your horn at them cos that's their mindset - there's little space everywhere so I'm taking this space and if you want me to move, just toot. New Yorkers ... you try sounding your horn at them, even if they are clearly in the wrong. In case you want to bring up the anomaly of the Japanese, understand that beneath that civil exterior held in place by overbearingly rigid "code of conduct" lies a rather obnoxious, selfish person to the core once you scratch past that facade.

China is right up there with population pressure and mega cities of tens of millions. To expect behaviour to be similar to somewhere else with an order of magnitude lower level of societal competition is just being naive. The Chinese are very pragmatic bunch and will take the path that requires the least effort if it is available. But to the point of outright disregard for civic space and sense? This is where I will disagree with you strongly.

If anything, in my time in China, I observe a very strong sense of morality and civic right and wrong. There will always be bad apples but the exception does not prove the rule. It's not because of the so called "army of cleaners" that cities are as well kept as they are. People do not wantonly deface property (graffiti) or treat things like shyte - not even in the most cowboy of T3 cities do I observe that kind of slef-over-society entitlement (and it's not because of a fear of enforcement).

Talking about enforcement. Another favourite observation of China - almost every lower tier city train station has announcements warning against private cab touts etc, often at the driveways where they will pick up passengers, often with a security personnel or two stationed there blithely ignoring the touts hanging out there. Fear of enforcement? lolz, hardly. Pragmatism on full display. As long as the private cabbies don't create a problem, the security personnel aren't going to interfere with their livelihood.

China is very culturally different. Once you understand what makes them tick, a lot of behaviour starts to make sense and become less objectionable. When in Rome ...
 

00CuriousObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
To Be Hero X / 凸变英雄X is insanely good, easily up there with top tier JP anime. Highly recommended, especially if you're into anime. The last episode has some of the best animation in any show.

 

Valentine

New Member
Registered Member
You keep framing things from the perspective of appealing to foreigners. It’s pathetic as you constantly come off as begging for validation. It reminds me of this Vietnamese who prided themselves over other Asians for not slurping noodles because they were colonized by the civilized French. The point of social development is indeed true for China as it’s a big country and many parts are still underdeveloped. However you frame development as something to do so that foreigners will like you and stay. They should develop to make their own society better. Does it matter that 80% of people leave? How is this different from any other non-immigrant destination country? What people are you even talking about? Foreigners in China are there to do extended sightseeing/vacation or business. Very few intend to live there long term even if you are Sinophilic. Judging by your previous posts I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and you are referring to sinophilic foreigners disappointed in the country and its peoples low moral character which causes them to leave. This is normal for all countries. Most of these people like countries for dumb commercial reasons and then leave disappointed. The other group are when richer expats move into poorer countries to abuse the low cost of living and currency advantages. They also live in their own bubble away from poor people in their own exclusive gated community. This is what people do in SEA and recently JP from my observations (also some parts of Latin America). Appealing to this group is mentally colonized behavior.
I don't want to start a debate on this topic; it's not specifically about moral character; a separate 1,000-page thread would be enough for that. But, let's talk about the culture of behavior, and why China should introduce mandatory fines like in Hong Kong or Singapore (they're being introduced, for example, because they're essentially Chinese and the Chinese sphere dominates) and, in general, introduce social behavior lessons for students.

Let's start with the idea that I have a colonial mindset, and for me, culture means making foreigners like me. However, first and foremost, raising the moral standard of society will strengthen the bonds of society itself, and Confucian moral norms prohibit disrespectful behavior toward others, not just family members. Today, for example, in Chongqing, at the Chongqing railway station. Two taxi drivers took a parking spot at a bus stop, forcing people to step out onto the road to board the bus. I approached the taxi drivers and asked them to park and look for Douyin elsewhere. One drove off, the other was rude to me. My question is: if the taxi driver had taken the spot respectfully, without causing problems for the residents of Chongqing, was this an attempt to please foreigners? Or was it a display of basic civility? In central Chongqing, you can easily see people parking their cars on the expressway to eat street food, thereby creating traffic jams because the lane where cars should be is occupied by people eating or using their phones. It's also not very healthy for society overall.

I can't say anything about garbage in the cities; it's generally clean if you clean it up. But people often just throw garbage underfoot, which makes the city look terribly filthy until the cleaners come. This isn't about foreigners being pleased; it's about society, first and foremost, for the Chinese. I absolutely adore China, but the way they raise their citizens is sometimes terrible. It's like London or New York, I wouldn't stab you in broad daylight; the culture is different, but that doesn't change what I said earlier. And tourists are also part of the image. Young, educated Chinese aren't very happy about this.

But I don't see the point in continuing to discuss this topic here; that's not what this thread is about.
 
Top