Chinese shipbuilding industry

dingyibvs

Senior Member
As I've advocated before, the response should always be asymmetrical whenever possible. The US is attempting to leverage its status as the largest import market to achieve its goals whether it's with port fees or tariffa, with the cost of undermining its status as the largest import market (raising costs, depressing demand). China can retaliate in kind as some have suggested, e.g. levying port call fees for Korean/Japanese ship. Some have suggested somewhat asymmetrical response e.g. airport landing fees for Boeing aircrafts. However, I think these are not the best options, as all of them can hurt China's interactions with the ROW, causing diplomatic frictions as well as reducing China's status and leverage as the largest export market.

IMO the best asymmetrical response is always to go with the flow. In boxing when the opponent throws a flurry of punches, the best response isn't necessarily to throw a flurry of punches back. What I think China should do is to continue improve relations with SK and Japan, and aggressively integrate China into their shipbuilding supply chain. For example, the IMO is forging ahead with ship emissions restrictions with the goal of net neutral by I think 2050 in a recent meeting. A meeting BTW the US did not attend due to recent budget cuts not covering for travel expenses. o_O China can take advantage of this by continue to aggressively invest in methanol, ammonia, etc. as well as powertrains. It can then offer them to SK/Japan. Take stakes in their shipbuilders (SK may be an easier target here as the Chaebols can be enticed more easily) and their suppliers down to basic materials like steel whenever possible.

SK and Japan are currently capacity constrained. To meet future demands they need more labor which China already supplies a lot of, more capital in a world not in a mood to invest except for China, and tech which the US is shunning but China is investing in. When the US sanctioned Huawei many suggested targeting Apple or Tesla. Yet the Chinese government went with the flow and used the domestication imperative driven by sanctions to supercharge the construction of the domestic semiconductor industry. Wouldn't it be ironic if port call fees designed to weaken the Chinese shipbuilding industry in favor of SK/Japan instead made SK/Japan unable to build ships without China? Rather than leveraging China's status as the largest export market to counterpunch and as a result reducing China's status as the largest export market (or at least reduce its growth), it would leverage China's labor, capital, and tech in addition to the port fees to strengthen China's position in the shipbuilding industry, all the while not causing any harm to China's interests via China's own actions, unlike the American ones.

After some initial turbulence, things will settle down. China trades far more than the US, China runs some of the largest shipping companies, and as someone who has already calculated, the port fees aren't that much (especially when compared to the >$10k per container markup during the COVID days). Over the medium term the impact on China's shipbuilding industry will be limited, especially when including workarounds (transshipping to sidestep the fees, shared cost between alliance partners, etc.). Over the longer term trade barrier uncertainty (tariffs, port fees, sanctions, etc.) will serve to isolate American trade with the ROW, further mitigating the impact. In the grander scheme of things, actions designed to hurt the opponent are weaker in general than actions designed to uplift oneself. Like China's response toward tech sanctions, the actions taken against the port fees should look first and foremost into how it can be used to uplift China rather than hurting the US while only throw punches judicially. Flow like the water and sting like a bee.
 

foxmulder_ms

Junior Member
As I've advocated before, the response should always be asymmetrical whenever possible. The US is attempting to leverage its status as the largest import market to achieve its goals whether it's with port fees or tariffa, with the cost of undermining its status as the largest import market (raising costs, depressing demand). China can retaliate in kind as some have suggested, e.g. levying port call fees for Korean/Japanese ship. Some have suggested somewhat asymmetrical response e.g. airport landing fees for Boeing aircrafts. However, I think these are not the best options, as all of them can hurt China's interactions with the ROW, causing diplomatic frictions as well as reducing China's status and leverage as the largest export market.

IMO the best asymmetrical response is always to go with the flow. In boxing when the opponent throws a flurry of punches, the best response isn't necessarily to throw a flurry of punches back. What I think China should do is to continue improve relations with SK and Japan, and aggressively integrate China into their shipbuilding supply chain. For example, the IMO is forging ahead with ship emissions restrictions with the goal of net neutral by I think 2050 in a recent meeting. A meeting BTW the US did not attend due to recent budget cuts not covering for travel expenses. o_O China can take advantage of this by continue to aggressively invest in methanol, ammonia, etc. as well as powertrains. It can then offer them to SK/Japan. Take stakes in their shipbuilders (SK may be an easier target here as the Chaebols can be enticed more easily) and their suppliers down to basic materials like steel whenever possible.

SK and Japan are currently capacity constrained. To meet future demands they need more labor which China already supplies a lot of, more capital in a world not in a mood to invest except for China, and tech which the US is shunning but China is investing in. When the US sanctioned Huawei many suggested targeting Apple or Tesla. Yet the Chinese government went with the flow and used the domestication imperative driven by sanctions to supercharge the construction of the domestic semiconductor industry. Wouldn't it be ironic if port call fees designed to weaken the Chinese shipbuilding industry in favor of SK/Japan instead made SK/Japan unable to build ships without China? Rather than leveraging China's status as the largest export market to counterpunch and as a result reducing China's status as the largest export market (or at least reduce its growth), it would leverage China's labor, capital, and tech in addition to the port fees to strengthen China's position in the shipbuilding industry, all the while not causing any harm to China's interests via China's own actions, unlike the American ones.

After some initial turbulence, things will settle down. China trades far more than the US, China runs some of the largest shipping companies, and as someone who has already calculated, the port fees aren't that much (especially when compared to the >$10k per container markup during the COVID days). Over the medium term the impact on China's shipbuilding industry will be limited, especially when including workarounds (transshipping to sidestep the fees, shared cost between alliance partners, etc.). Over the longer term trade barrier uncertainty (tariffs, port fees, sanctions, etc.) will serve to isolate American trade with the ROW, further mitigating the impact. In the grander scheme of things, actions designed to hurt the opponent are weaker in general than actions designed to uplift oneself. Like China's response toward tech sanctions, the actions taken against the port fees should look first and foremost into how it can be used to uplift China rather than hurting the US while only throw punches judicially. Flow like the water and sting like a bee.


Your assumption has a vital error. You think SK and Japan will behave for their own good. Wrong. Ukraine war showed that US vassals behave according to US desires: Germany is a very vivid example. Do not expect SK or Japan do anything not approved by US.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
You don't need to charge more on foreign ships. You just give Chinese ships a preference discount on port fees, priority in handling, dock choices etc,. US oil and gas are going to be tariffed anyway so they won't be headed to Chinese ports.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I think rather than levying a fee on Korean/Japanese built ships, which is targeting a country that did not target us while also leaving loopholes for ships built in other countries, we can just levy a port fee on all cargo ships unloading/loading in China and waive that fee if the ship was Chinese-built (or any other reason we want to play with).
 

Godzilla

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't think these people understand how capacity constrained are the ship building sector outside of China especially in the likes of Korea and Japan with labor..... With the amount of work in the pipeline in the next 5 years taking up the same pool of resources, no one is going to be able to expand production at scale even if they have the order books. I am talking about not just the new order LNG tankers that take way longer than VLCCs, but all the FLNGs / FPSO / well heads / on shore LNG & petrochemical projects in Africa/ Asia/ ME /S & N America.
Companies are gonna fight over those projects first cause of the much higher margins compared to ship building and wages/prices will inflate as an equalizer to absorb the tariff impacts of buying and operating Chinese ships.

Deluded people can talk all their like, but it takes years to train people, spit out quality work and build reputation. Companies might try a few other places but will come back to China / Korea/ Japan when the likes of India and Thailand fk up, especially in these market conditions. Without serious people properly planning and government pouring $$$ and coordinating everything, nothing will change except prices.
 

lcloo

Captain
There are two thing most of us omitted is that Trump's tariff on China built ship is
1) to rebuilt ship building industry in USA. Though we know this is not going to work because South Korea and Japan will be cheaper alternative with quality works. Also like Godzilla said, US need to invest in skill workers which will need time.

2) to collect revenue in the form of tariff to lessen the burden of debt repayment and expenditure by US government.
 

dingyibvs

Senior Member
Your assumption has a vital error. You think SK and Japan will behave for their own good. Wrong. Ukraine war showed that US vassals behave according to US desires: Germany is a very vivid example. Do not expect SK or Japan do anything not approved by US.

IMO that's oversimplifying things, not much unlike saying Russian struggles against Ukraine would be mirrored by Chinese struggles against Taiwan. China is far more powerful than Russia, SK/Japan/Taiwan have far more to lose than Ukraine, and the US of 2014 led by Obama was in a far stronger position than the US of 2025 led by Trump.

I also must emphasize an important point in my post. SK and Japan are capacity constrained. There is no viable way for them to ramp up capacity without Chinese labor, capital, and tech. This is a fact that cannot be decreed away by an American order, so it's not just a matter of self interest.

I think rather than levying a fee on Korean/Japanese built ships, which is targeting a country that did not target us while also leaving loopholes for ships built in other countries, we can just levy a port fee on all cargo ships unloading/loading in China and waive that fee if the ship was Chinese-built (or any other reason we want to play with).

Let's see what the actual port call fee structure will be. One potential judicial counter punch would be this: Recall how the proposal is that any shipping company with any Chinese ship within its fleet would be assessed the fees? China could simply levy a similar fee on shipping companies that do not have ANY Chinese ship in its fleet. It doesn't punish any other countries' shipyard unjustly, it simply negates the incentives provided by the American fee schedule.

I agree with you that it'd be foolish for China to get into a destructive shipbuilding war with SK/Japan if it can avoid it. It would incentivize shipbuilding elsewhere, presumably in the West including the US, where China would have less abilities to control and strike should a hot war happen.
 

antwerpery

Junior Member
Registered Member
The one good thing about the US port levies is that it's coming right around the time that global trade with America is going to be slowing down a lot due to tariffs and with America generally backing out of globalization in general. The market, companies and nations haven't priced it in yet as it's still an complex ever evolving situation, but a year from now, if the end result of the trade war is American imports and exports dropping like a rock, those extra fees won't matter nearly as much as they do today due to the reduced traffic. America has a outsized impact on global shipping because they are the world's biggest consumer market and importer, that will probably change very fast, very soon.
 
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