Chinese semiconductor industry

That video by the Canada guy - Asianometry - was pretty shallow and he couldn't stop himself from engaging in the "buh CCP is unconductive of technological progress that comes from individualistic truimph etc". And he says China failed to commercialize and is only limited to prototypes all these years.Considering that US restrictions and confrontation started not so long ago, he is opining that China should have been competing with traditional established lithography providers.

ASML is not just a lithography provider but also a support and service provider. They optimise their equipment and software towards the interest of their client and their needs. TSMC doesn't use ASML the same way Intel uses ASML. The cost of this extended service is also considerable ( one of the reasons why many equate ASML business to Boeing/Airbus ). ASML has created an ecosystem where suppliers provide systems and software that works only with ASML litho machines ( Canon and Nikon, as I understand, do most of this in-house or by leveraging close partnership with other Japanese companies, under the auspices of METI of Japan).

China, prior to 2018, not only faced high technology barrier for entry but also a customer base that was locked into the long term "comfortable" embrace of ASML/Nikon/Canon. The task of providing long term support and services for their products was also another. Where or what is the impetus, prior to the US China confrontation, for semi fabs to pick these Chinese products?

As i understand, the many "shell companies" that came up are merely commercialization attempts of government backed research institutes. China, prior to the events, was only engaged in making sure that they build prototypes and keep updated with the technologies. China has been searching for an impetus and true motivation. One that really forces Chinese companies to seek the "unpolished" Chinese lithography solution so that they may create an ecosystem or network to polish it together.

antiterror13 said:

So, really you are comparing China with the best in the world from many many countries (not only western counterpart) ... is it fair comparison ? ... I reckon China is behind 7-10 years from the best in the world (from many countries)

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Global hegemony fight isn't one country vs one country, so comparing between China and another single country or talking about China being ranked 1st in the country list doesn't reflect reality. Country isn't a proper unit to compare on this matter. All those many many countries are together under the US control. They all obey the US. They are all part of the US power. So they should be considered one whole group, Americanosphere.

bettydice said:

Global hegemony fight isn't one country vs one country, so comparing between China and another single country or talking about China being ranked 1st in the country list doesn't reflect reality. Country isn't a proper unit to compare on this matter. All those many many countries are together under the US control. They all obey the US. They are all part of the US power. So they should be considered one whole group, Americanosphere.

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eh. Not really. They are influenced by the US yes but ultimately, they only look out for themselves. China can do a lot damage to the entire semiconductor industry simply by stop processing rare earth. And if you think they can somehow "look elsewhere," just take a look at the current shipping and logistic situation. We can fuck them up real hard and turn the entire world back to the 90s. Some semi-mentally challenged around here thought """"the world"""" can replicate China's infrastructures and logistic network by building them in different countries. LMAO Think about that for a second and recognize how stupid you are.

But we don't do that because like I said, those nations look out for their own skins. China can provide avenues for them to get out of the American orbit. That will be the ultimate humiliation for the Americans and I am looking forward to that.

Rare earth's can be replicated and built up anywhere. By being very open regarding rare earths ( ignoring the Japan case), I think China has learned to be evermore be restrained - choosing to build dependencies than break them.

I don't see China squeezing Rare earth's much in future. China will only continue to deepen its roots into Rare Earth industry. I am very supportive of this. What China needs to do is compel private companies to invest in lithography research (not just semiconductor design) by either investing in SMEE and its suppliers OR create their own fabrication equipments (easier said than done). Huawei investing in RSlaser may be taken as a pointer.

The least I expect Chinese private giants to do is to form a semiconductor/architecture/standards alliance atleast for Chinese needs. Alibaba announcing big sale numbers, Tencent having higher profits etc... all built on someone else's property, is not very inspiring long term.

Xsizor said:

Rare earth's can be replicated and built up anywhere. By being very open regarding rare earths ( ignoring the Japan case), I think China has learned to be evermore be restrained - choosing to build dependencies than break them.

I don't see China squeezing Rare earth's much in future. China will only continue to deepen its roots into Rare Earth industry. I am very supportive of this. What China needs to do is compel private companies to invest in lithography research (not just semiconductor design) by either investing in SMEE and its suppliers OR create their own fabrication equipments (easier said than done). Huawei investing in RSlaser may be taken as a pointer.

The least I expect Chinese private giants to do is to form a semiconductor/architecture/standards alliance atleast for Chinese needs. Alibaba announcing big sale numbers, Tencent having higher profits etc... all built on someone else's property, is not very inspiring long term.

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If you think about it, rare earth dependency is a stabilising factor which discourages an actual war against China, and vice-versa

If a country decide to go to war against China, they'll be cut off from those rare earths and face an industrial crisis

Xsizor said:

Rare earth's can be replicated and built up anywhere. By being very open regarding rare earths ( ignoring the Japan case), I think China has learned to be evermore be restrained - choosing to build dependencies than break them.

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Not really. You can open mines in plenty of countries, yes, but the technology for rare earth refinement is largely Chinese nowadays. So if China imposes export restrictions on them, then they would not be able to replicate anything before they catch up and it is going to take quite some time which you don't have.

latenlazy said:

Seems like we have to go back to this point a lot but the only really technological limitation for Chinese EUV is the light generation mechanism. To be fair this has also always been the technical hurdle for everyone else who can do advanced lithography. The nanometer precision mirrors are also hard but most countries with advanced machining capabilities can handle that component pretty readily.

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It´s such a shame that Trumpf and Gigaphoton are already in the chinese market, but are not allowed to deliver their best laser to them. China is the second second largest market for Trumpf.
Can someone tell me which laser the ASML EUV machine are in use? Here in this forum I always read Cymer, but the german news media always praise Trumpf and Zeiss for their big achievement in EUV.

Overseaschinese said:

It´s such a shame that Trumpf and Gigaphoton are already in the chinese market, but are not allowed to deliver their best laser to them. China is the second second largest market for Trumpf.
Can someone tell me which laser the ASML EUV machine are in use? Here in this forum I always read Cymer, but the german news media always praise Trumpf and Zeiss for their big achievement in EUV.

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From what I could find Trumpf delivers the initial Co2 laser that is used by Cymer to create their light source for their EUV laser.

@horse bro is this true, from what I read in the Western MSM it was Canada who denied Huawei?

Huawei withdraws from Canada and refuses to authorize 5G patents!More than 4,500 job cuts and will dissolve the Canadian branch​

2021-12-02 08:12 HKT

Huawei no longer forbears!
It is reported that Huawei recently announced that it will dissolve its Canadian branch, lay off more than 4,500 employees, refuse to authorize 5G patents to Canada, abandon the Canadian market, and withdraw Huawei technical personnel.

What does this mean for Canada?

As a member of 5G standard customization, Huawei occupies one of the four basic short codes; according to the latest 5G patent report released by German patent data company IPlytics:


As of April 2019, the number of 5G communication system SEPs applied by Chinese companies accounted for 34% of the world, ranking first in the world. Among them, Huawei owns 15% of SEPs and is the world's leading 5G patent.



SEP here refers to standard key patents, and companies with SEPs can charge patent fees, and key patents can build 5G base stations, mobile phones and other equipment at a lower cost;
This also makes the domestic deployment of the Internet of Things relatively faster, and the number of domestic 5G base stations has been increasing, and the popularity of 5G networks can be more flexibly matched and constructed from main base stations to small base stations.

If Huawei abandons the Canadian market and refuses to authorize key patents, it means that if Canada wants to develop 5G communication technology, it can only find other technologies to replace and bypass all of Huawei's communication patent technologies. This means that Canada's 5G popularization construction will be delayed, because Even if Huawei's base stations are not used, other brands of base stations contain Huawei's patent licenses. This makes the equipment of these communications companies must be redesigned and produced. However, it is not easy to bypass the key technology. This is the power of the core technology.


In addition, we still have to distinguish the understanding of the refusal of authorization. Unlike the self-interest-based approach in the United States, Huawei will be forced to go this way in the end: ask which father in the world can bear to bully his children. Of people provide high-quality technical services...
Huawei ranked first, and the following rankings are: Nokia, Samsung, LG, ZTE, Qualcomm, Ericsson, Intel, China Telecom Science and Technology Research Institute, Sharp...
Thanks to the centimeter wave solution advocated by Huawei is more suitable for popularization than Qualcomm's centimeter wave solution, it has more initiative in key patents;

It is understood that Huawei currently has 50,300 authorized patents worldwide. According to data previously published by the World Intellectual Property Organization, among the international applicants who submitted the Patent Cooperation Treaty in 2015, Huawei ranked first in the world with 3898 open applications...
Huawei is only a private technology company. As a communications equipment service provider, the development of technology research and development was originally an ordinary enterprise development model, but because it has mastered the new generation of 5G communications technology ahead of the United States, it was maliciously pulled into the "blacklist". This is "a matter of course" for Western countries that have always advocated freedom and fairness as their slogans, because they have a double standard-everything is based on their own interests as the starting point;
Obviously Canada is a puppet. The United States behind the scenes wants to "gobble up" Huawei by "copying Alstom against France", but this time it finds the wrong opponent, because Huawei will not easily admit defeat!

I thought Huawei was going to move the US office to Canada?