Chinese semiconductor industry

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Alb

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manqiangrexue said:
Could you post whatever you saw that makes you think that SMIC is giving up? Also, according to Dr. Liang, SMIC's designs all the way up to 3nm are ready, just waiting for the lithograph so that might explain why they're not investing much more at this time. They're ahead waiting for the bottleneck.

Although it may be a short term hindrance, Huawei is not a company to sit it out and wait for SMIC. Although SMIC's semiconductor designs are ahead, Huawei has invested in its own fabs are is expected to advance very rapidly once the lithographs are available.
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Have a look at page 10 of the pdf file.

From the press release:

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Dr. Haijun Zhao and Dr. Liang Mong Song, Co-CEOs of SMIC commented:“At present, the foundry industry capacity is tight, the demand for non-FinFET processes remain strong, and our capacity for non-FinFET will continue to be fully loaded. In order to meet customer needs, the Company expects capital expenditures this year to be US$4.3 billion, in which majority is for non-FinFET capacity expansion, and remaining for FinFET, the infrastructure of the new Beijing joint-venture project, and etc. In terms of capacity expansion, we increase monthly non-FinFET capacity by 10,000 for 12-inch, and not less than 45,000 for 8-inch this year. Given the impact of being added to the Entity List, we will consider strengthening the development and deployment of our first and second generation FinFET multi-platforms and expand the reliability and competitiveness of our platforms.”
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

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Alb said:
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Have a look at page 10 of the pdf file.

From the press release:

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Dr. Haijun Zhao and Dr. Liang Mong Song, Co-CEOs of SMIC commented:“At present, the foundry industry capacity is tight, the demand for non-FinFET processes remain strong, and our capacity for non-FinFET will continue to be fully loaded. In order to meet customer needs, the Company expects capital expenditures this year to be US$4.3 billion, in which majority is for non-FinFET capacity expansion, and remaining for FinFET, the infrastructure of the new Beijing joint-venture project, and etc. In terms of capacity expansion, we increase monthly non-FinFET capacity by 10,000 for 12-inch, and not less than 45,000 for 8-inch this year. Given the impact of being added to the Entity List, we will consider strengthening the development and deployment of our first and second generation FinFET multi-platforms and expand the reliability and competitiveness of our platforms.”
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So that paragraph does not support your conclusion of anybody "giving up." It pretty much means that non-FinFet is gonna be the money pig for SMIC while they continue "strengthening the development and deployment of our first and second generation FinFET multi-platforms..." They're far ahead of the lithographs; there's little to do at this point.
 
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manqiangrexue said:
So that paragraph does not support your conclusion of anybody "giving up." It pretty much means that non-FinFet is gonna be the money pig for SMIC while they continue "strengthening the development and deployment of our first and second generation FinFET multi-platforms..." They're far ahead of the lithographs; there's little to do at this point.
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Finfet revenue collapsed this quarter (if you look at page 10 of the PDF). This year the bulk of investment will be in non finfet production. What I read from this is that finfet/advanced technologIies are not the priority. May be "giving up" is a strong word but to me the path that SMiIC is pursuing is clear. Also bear in mind that DUVL from ASML is not blocked, only EUVL is not shipped, therefore even if SMIC gets a domestic DUVL this year it will not affect its ability to produce chips at 7nm and above.
 
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gadgetcool5 said:
I told you guys. China's most advanced lithography capability is 90nm. This forum is such a fantasyland.

It has nothing to do with SMIC "giving up". They have literally no choice as they simply lack the capability to pursue advanced nodes now. They are making the right decision to focus on older nodes; their goal now is simply profitability. If they can remain a viable concern and profitable, and not end up like Tsinghua Unigroup then it will already be a win as it shows a foundry can survive under sanctions.
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DUVL from ASML is not blocked so this choice is not due to the lack of litho machines.
I was very optimistic about SMIC that is why I am so disappointed now!
 
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gadgetcool5

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Alb said:
DUVL from ASML is not blocked so this choice is not due to the lack of litho machines.
I was very optimistic about SMIC that is why I am so disappointed now!
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All suppliers need a Commerce Department license including ASML now. I doubt the Commerce Department approved any modern DUVL machines for SMIC in Q4 2020. Even if they did however, SMIC would need supplies from other American companies that are blocked.
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

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gadgetcool5 said:
I told you guys. China's most advanced lithography capability is 90nm. This forum is such a fantasyland.
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Told us what? All I remember is you parroting that China should give up its claims to beg for "good relations" from every mouse and midget around it. The forum is mostly WTAN updating people on lithography progress. Maybe it is something else in your fantasyland/imagination.
Alb said:
Finfet revenue collapsed this quarter (if you look at page 10 of the PDF). This year the bulk of investment will be in non finfet production. What I read from this is that finfet/advanced technologIies are not the priority. May be "giving up" is a strong word but to me the path that SMiIC is pursuing is clear.
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It's clear that it's what I said. SMIC is waiting for the domestic lithographs because it's ahead of that bottleneck. Read the last sentence of the paragraph that you quoted. Don't ignore it because it doesn't fit your theory.
Alb said:
Also bear in mind that DUVL from ASML is not blocked, only EUVL is not shipped, therefore even if SMIC gets a domestic DUVL this year it will not affect its ability to produce chips at 7nm and above.
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DUVL for ASML is not a viable path. It's not blocked today, it's blocked tomorrow, or after you buy it, all support and spares are blocked. It's garbage. Only Chinese tech is reliable.
 
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Alb said:
DUVL from ASML is not blocked so this choice is not due to the lack of litho machines.
I was very optimistic about SMIC that is why I am so disappointed now!
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May be the second but ASML CEO clearly stated that DUV can be shipped from the Netherlands to SMIC. Only parts that are directly shipped from the US are blocked. You can read ASML Q3 transcript. Regarding the other equipments I was hoping that local + non US could fill the gaps....
 
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manqiangrexue said:
Told us what? All I remember is you parroting that China should give up its claims to beg for "good relations" from every mouse and midget around it. The forum is mostly WTAN updating people on lithography progress. Maybe it is something else in your fantasyland/imagination.

It's clear that it's what I said. SMIC is waiting for the domestic lithographs because it's ahead of that bottleneck. Read the last sentence of the paragraph that you quoted. Don't ignore it because it doesn't fit your theory.

DUVL for ASML is not a viable path. It's not blocked today, it's blocked tomorrow, or after you buy it, all support and spares are blocked. It's garbage. Only Chinese tech is reliable.
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I am pro China semiconductor but we have to be realistic and not kid ourselves
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

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Alb said:
May be the second but ASML CEO clearly stated that DUV can be shipped from the Netherlands to SMIC. Only parts that are directly shipped from the US are blocked. You can read ASML Q3 transcript. Regarding the other equipments I was hoping that local + non US could fill the gaps....
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ASML CEO's words aren't worth a pig's fart. Today he tells you this can be done, then you wrangle up the resources, get your facilities prepped, personnel trained, payment readied, then he tells you he can't do it anymore because the US just threatened to to financially sanction ASML and the Netherlands and rob their ships at sea if needed so now he no longer has a license to send anything to you. Like I said, if the lithograph isn't Chinese, it's not useable.
Alb said:
I am pro China semiconductor but we have to be realistic and not kid ourselves
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OK so you stop kidding yourself that SMIC is out of the FinFet game like you said.
 
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OppositeDay

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The collapse of SMIC's FinFET revenue was certainly due to the Huawei sanction. Huawei has long been the biggest customer of SMIC's more advanced processes. Let's see if Unisoc/Spreadtrum can up their game this year. They have hired some key personnel from Hisilicon.

The next two years are going to be the hardest years for the Chinese semiconductor industry and ICT supply chain in general with the sanction on Huawei the biggest pusher for domestic suppliers and SMIC. Hopefully U.S. putting Xiaomi on the entity list will give Xiaomi some incentives to use domestic suppliers even at the expense of short term profitiability.
 
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