Chinese semiconductor industry

BlackWindMnt · May 22, 2023

gelgoog said:
You are underestimating the amount of effort. Large pieces of software can be incredibly complicated. Even average run of the mill commercial programs can have hundreds of thousands of lines of code. That can be a decade's worth of iterative effort by a team of 8-12 people. A single person can develop a program in the tens of thousands of lines of code if you give them enough time to code it.

Something like a web browser or operating system can have tens of millions of lines of code. Try designing a machine with millions of pieces and get it to work flawlessly, and that is how complicated software can be.

Yeah I have to agree as a developer myself. I have worked in multiple 100k~500k line code bases. Usually in older enterprise environments with decades of legacy code. The complexity of things and the brittleness of some large code bases is burning people up.

But I do get that it might look a lot easier because you can easily verify your changes. But large code bases might also take hours if not days to compile and deploy.

tokenanalyst · May 22, 2023

tphuang said:
Given China's domination in polysilicon production

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
estimated to reach 90% in the future, it's amazing they haven't been able to increase their market share in silicon wafers. I would imagine that changes over the next few years

question about this then. They made no mention of support for analog circuit wrt to 7nm. anyone knows what having full support of digital tools mean for analog tools?

7nm process is for digital logic circuits, probably they are referring to spice simulation tools.
I guess full digital support would be from HDL simulation to synthesis to foorplanning to placement to clock-timing - layout - to mask.

EDA tools for digital circuit design
Huada Jiutian digital circuit design EDA tools provide a series of characteristic solutions, including cell library characterization extraction tools, cell library/IP quality verification tools, clock quality inspection and analysis tools, high-precision timing simulation analysis tools, timing power optimization tools and layout integration and analysis tools, etc.

The cell library characterization extraction tool Empyrean Liberal ® provides a solution for automatically extracting timing and power characterization models of standard cell libraries for timing and power analysis of digital circuit designs.
Empyrean Qualib ® , a cell library/IP quality verification tool , provides a comprehensive cell library/IP quality analysis and verification solution, providing an important guarantee for high-quality design completion and design targets.
The clock quality inspection and analysis tool Empyrean ClockExplorer ® provides a one-stop clock analysis and quality inspection solution, which can reduce the iterations of the front and back ends of clock tree synthesis and improve the efficiency of clock design.
The high-precision timing simulation analysis tool ICExplorer-XTime ® provides a high-precision timing simulation analysis solution for advanced technology and low-voltage design, effectively solving the problem that static timing analysis methods for advanced technology and low-voltage design cannot accurately evaluate timing and design reliability problem.
Timing power optimization tool ICExplorer-XTop ® provides a one-stop timing power optimization solution for advanced technology, large-scale design and multi-work scenarios, including setup time, hold time, transient time and leakage power consumption optimization etc.
The layout integration and analysis tool Empyrean Skipper ® provides an efficient one-stop layout integration and analysis solution, including fast reading and viewing of massive layouts, fast layout integration functions, batch layout data processing functions, parallel wire-net tracking functions, and point-to-point Point resistance analysis functions, etc., provide strong support for efficiently analyzing and processing ultra-large-scale layout data.

tphuang · May 22, 2023

gelgoog said:
There are several companies with multiple projects to build silicon wafer capacity in China.
I am less worried about the wafers than things like photoresist at this point.

That's not Chinese way of thinking. Don't only worry about where you might be lacking, but also areas where you are not dominating as much as you should.

happenings from this week?

近日，
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
有限公司科创板IPO成功过会；润鹏半导体12英寸集成电路生产线项目FAB主厂房首块筏板基础顺利浇筑；
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
在投资者互动平台表示，6英寸SiC SBD产品处于小批量量产；新微半导体基于硅基氮化镓6英寸/150mm晶圆的40V增强型功率器件工艺平台开发完成，正式发布量产；
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
在投资者互动平台表示，PECVD设备仍处于验证阶段；
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
在投资者互动平台表示，ALE设备已实现多项工艺应用；
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
12英寸超精密晶圆减薄机正式在客户生产线投入量产；中科飞测在上海证券交易所科创板上市；Imec与KLA、通用合作，在美建立无人驾驶汽车研究实验室

Huahong IPO success
润鹏半导体 (never heard of these guys)'s fab has been roofed
Yandong said 6 inch SiC SBD has entered low risk production
Xinwei micro has completed development of 40V power device on 6-inch GaN wafers, starting production
Shengmei says PECVD still in validation process
NAURA says its ALE equipment used in several process
HWATSING's 12-inch ultra-precision wafer thinning machine in production

tonyget · May 22, 2023

Is Chinese fab herding US equipments now？

From public bidding info，they do seem buying lots of US equipments at the moment.

Also Chinese gov did reduced import tariff to zero on semiconductor equipments，and setup a fast customs clearance channel for semiconductor companies to import equipments. So that is indirectly supporting purchases of these foreign equipments.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Trailing edge & old stuff is in vogue again
It seems very weird that the strongest demand remains in older technology nodes and especially in China.
Obviously China is embargoed from the leading edge so they can only buy trailing edge and they are doing so with extreme vigor…anything that isn’t nailed down.
The joke making the rounds in the industry that the Kanban phrase of “just in time” has been replaced in China by “just in case” (just in case they are totally cut off by the US).
While AMAT management seemed to deny the view that China may be stockpiling equipment we are not so sure as there does not appear to be enough fab projects for all the equipment being ordered from all the equipment makers… it just doesn’t add up.
Management did agree that the Chinese government was supporting purchases which they wouldn’t need to do if the tools were truly needed to meet demand in real fab projects.
We remain concerned that the main lifeline that Applied has is China and trailing edge equipment. We are not sure how dependable that demand is or will remain in the future.

China seems to be buying any chip equipment not nailed down
One of our other concerns that we continue to see is that China has been on a huge spending spree for non leading edge equipment. Its hard to figure out where all the equipment is going as it seems there aren’t that many fabs in China (that we know of).
It has all the makings of the famous toilet paper shortage as people bought in expectation of a shortage.
China seems to be buying any and all equipment they can as they likely fear that they will be cut off from even non leading edge tools. We saw this in ASML’s report this morning where 45-50% of DUV sales were into China.
This demand from China feels artificial and runs the additional risk of slowing because of increased sanctions or just running out of the stampede/herd mentality.

BoraTas · May 22, 2023

56860 said:
That they have. American sanctions did what CPC policy couldn't. It forced domestic companies to collaborate across the supply chain.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Now Empyrean is at 5nm. It turns out a lot can happen in just 3 short years. China speed rofl.

Why PolSci grads shouldn't be listened to vol 7567565

Note: Tech enthusiast PolSci grads, please don't get offended.

tphuang · May 22, 2023

tonyget said:
Is Chinese fab herding US equipments now？

From public bidding info，they do seem buying lots of US equipments at the moment.

Also Chinese gov did reduced import tariff to zero on semiconductor equipments，and setup a fast customs clearance channel for semiconductor companies to import equipments. So that is indirectly supporting purchases of these foreign equipments.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

what are you talking about? What public bidding info showing them buying lots of US equipment? The first 4 month shows domestic SMEs winning close to 70% of time.

Now, there might be a lot of non-mainland fabs like korean & Taiwanese ones buying us equipments, but they are not sanctioned.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the sales to China are for equipments ordered last year that are getting fast tracked now to beat any possible new sanctions.

tonyget · May 22, 2023

tphuang said:
what are you talking about? What public bidding info showing them buying lots of US equipment? The first 4 month shows domestic SMEs winning close to 70% of time.

Now, there might be a lot of non-mainland fabs like korean & Taiwanese ones buying us equipments, but they are not sanctioned.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the sales to China are for equipments ordered last year that are getting fast tracked now to beat any possible new sanctions.

Look back last few weeks bidding info，there is a large chunk of US equipment，remember HuaHong's bid last week？"HH is still using a shockingly high amount Lam and Amat equipment in these bids"，that's your own words

tphuang said:
btw, last week's bids results are out. HH is still using a shockingly high amount Lam and Amat equipment in these bids

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
not great, especially since these are for mature process that domestic toolmakers should have products for. I understand that domestic tool makers might not be as consistent, but it's like HH hasn't learnt any lesson from sanctions

tokenanalyst · May 22, 2023

tonyget said:
Is Chinese fab herding US equipments now？

From public bidding info，they do seem buying lots of US equipments at the moment.

Also Chinese gov did reduced import tariff to zero on semiconductor equipments，and setup a fast customs clearance channel for semiconductor companies to import equipments. So that is indirectly supporting purchases of these foreign equipments.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

That guy from semiwiki is a pretty opinionated individual, so I would take whatever this guy said with a truck load of salt.

But looks like US companies are trying circumventing export controls by moving production to South East Asia and hiring non US individuals to give support. The problem, for I have been reading and seeing in the hearings, is that the China hawks are looking to close even those loopholes or even put export controls with presumption of denial in mature processes. Buying tools from US companies is risky given the anti-China political climate in D.C. those guys are like toddlers with an overdose of sugar.

Is hard to know how much US tools SMIC, YMTC and CXMT because those fabs usually buy directly and those companies are in the blacklist. Most of the US biddings wins seems to be to other fabs like Jita and others.

Given that the bidding process is suppose to be a blind process it would require a change in Chinese law or put US companies in a unreliable list.

tphuang said:
what are you talking about? What public bidding info showing them buying lots of US equipment? The first 4 month shows domestic SMEs winning close to 70% of time.

Looks like domestics companies are winning between 50% to 70% but given the blindness of the process US companies can still participate if they can guarantee the availability and maintenance of their tools.

tonyget said:
Look back last few weeks bidding info，there is a large chunk of US equipment，remember HuaHong's bid last week？"HH is still using a shockingly high amount Lam and Amat equipment in these bids"，that's your own words

Still the vast majority was win by Chinese companies.

tonyget · May 22, 2023

tokenanalyst said:
That guy from semiwiki is a pretty opinionated individual, so I would take whatever this guy said with a truck load of salt.

But looks like US companies are trying circumventing export controls by moving production to South East Asia and hiring non US individuals to give support. The problem, for I have been reading and seeing in the hearings, is that the China hawks are looking to close even those loopholes or even put export controls with presumption of denial in mature processes. Buying tools from US companies is risky given the anti-China political climate in D.C. those guys are like toddlers with an overdose of sugar.

Is hard to know how much US tools SMIC, YMTC and CXMT because those fabs usually buy directly and those companies are in the blacklist. Most of the US biddings wins seems to be to other fabs like Jita and others.

His conclusion was from talking with AMAT management. AMAT' quarterly report specifies regional sells figure，we would know whether their sells in China increased or decreased in July

tphuang · May 22, 2023

tonyget said:
Look back last few weeks bidding info，there is a large chunk of US equipment，remember HuaHong's bid last week？"HH is still using a shockingly high amount Lam and Amat equipment in these bids"，that's your own words

that's still a small fraction of the winning bids vs 6 months ago. Domestic SMEs are increasing their sales by 50 to 100% in the past year. That's a lot, but they are still unable to come close to supplying the entire market. Now, at some point, Chinese gov't may want to put in explicit laws to restrict US equipment sales of mature nodes, but better to save that salvo for the next set of restrictions.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

anyways, Moore Threads is showcasing its S80 GPUs in Beijing. It's been used for AIGC & also for next-gen multi-platform GPU physics engine AlphaCore

目前，摩尔线程基于其MUSA统一系统架构打造的全功能GPU芯片——“苏堤”和“春晓”已经实现量产, 并与200余家行业生态伙伴达成了战略合作，将在元宇宙、数字孪生、AIGC生成式人工智能、ChatGPT类大语言模型等重要场景中发挥坚实的算力基石作用，满足金融、教育、能源和农业等各行业用户的算力需求，赋能多行业数字化转型与智能化升级。

confirms that both S60 and S80 are in mass production
has over 200 ecosystem partners
to be used in metaverse, digital twin, AIGC, chatgpt type of applications

Chinese semiconductor industry

BlackWindMnt

Captain

tokenanalyst

Brigadier

tphuang

Lieutenant General

tonyget

Senior Member

Trailing edge & old stuff is in vogue again

China seems to be buying any chip equipment not nailed down

BoraTas

Major

tphuang

Lieutenant General

tonyget

Senior Member

tokenanalyst

Brigadier

tonyget

Senior Member

tphuang

Lieutenant General

Chinese semiconductor industry

Captain

Brigadier

Lieutenant General

Senior Member

Trailing edge & old stuff is in vogue again​

China seems to be buying any chip equipment not nailed down​

Major

Lieutenant General

Senior Member

Brigadier

Senior Member

Lieutenant General

Trailing edge & old stuff is in vogue again

China seems to be buying any chip equipment not nailed down