Chinese semiconductor industry

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tonyget

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It suprise to me that China hasn't banned American cloud service in China,the US banned Chinese cloud service long ago.

国产GPU尚处萌芽期,与国际厂商差距更大。提供通用算力的全球服务器CPU市场被英特尔、AMD垄断。国产服务器CPU包括阿里的倚天、华为的鲲鹏,以及“中科系”(中科院计算技术研究所持股企业)的海光和龙芯。国产CPU在全球市场份额不足2%,在中国市场份额不足8%。
Domestic GPUs are still in their infancy, and the gap with international manufacturers is even greater. The global server CPU market that provides general-purpose computing power is monopolized by Intel and AMD. Domestic server CPUs include Ali's Yitian, Huawei's Kunpeng, and Haiguang and Loongson of the "Chinese Academy of Sciences" (a holding company of the Institute of Computing Technology, Chinese Academy of Sciences). The domestic CPU has a global market share of less than 2%, and a Chinese market share of less than 8%.

目前中国大陆本土科技公司自主设计的14nm以下先进工艺芯片几乎都由台积电代工。不过,考虑到美国的制裁风险,一些企业正在尝试摆脱台积电。一位半导体公司人士对《财经十一人》透露,百度昆仑芯三代的代工方已更换成三星半导体。
At present, almost all advanced process chips below 14nm independently designed by local technology companies in mainland China are manufactured by TSMC. However, considering the risk of US sanctions, some companies are trying to get rid of TSMC. A person from a semiconductor company revealed to Caijing Eleven that the third-generation foundry of Baidu Kunlun Core has been replaced by Samsung Semiconductor.

国产芯片服务器目前采购和优化成本偏高。国内市场,英特尔x86芯片服务器均价4万-5万元/台,华为鲲鹏920芯片服务器售价8万-10万元/台。一位服务器设备制造厂商人士今年3月对《财经十一人》说,国产服务器芯片另一挑战是软件生态不完善。例如,采购鲲鹏服务器后,通常还要进行长达半个月的软件适配和优化,否则只能发挥理论性能的30%-60%。
Domestic chip servers are currently expensive to purchase and optimize. In the domestic market, the average price of Intel x86 chip servers is 40,000-50,000 yuan/set, and the price of Huawei Kunpeng 920 chip servers is 80,000-100,000 yuan/set. A person from a server equipment manufacturer told Caijing Eleven in March this year that another challenge for domestic server chips is the imperfect software ecosystem. For example, after purchasing a Kunpeng server, it usually takes half a month to adapt and optimize the software, otherwise it can only play 30%-60% of the theoretical performance.
即使如此,规模化采购国产芯片服务器仍然被认为是必须要走的一步。一位金融机构CIO和中国电子技术人士此前同时对《财经十一人》直言,国产芯片服务器目前只做到了能用这一步。从经济指标来看,国产服务器采购成本高,易用性相对较差,被认为占用了原本的IT支出。但从政策指标来看,这是必须走的一步。只有先买起来、用起来,国产芯片服务器才能从能用变得好用。
Even so, large-scale procurement of domestic chip servers is still considered a necessary step. A CIO of a financial institution and a person from China's electronic technology told "Finance and Economics Eleven" at the same time that domestic chip servers have only reached the point where they can be used. From the perspective of economic indicators, domestic servers are expensive to purchase and relatively poor in ease of use, which are considered to occupy the original IT expenditure. But judging from policy indicators, this is a necessary step. Only by buying and using it first, can domestic chip servers change from useful to easy to use.

云计算服务原本是算力产业链利润最丰厚的部分。中国在技术需求、市场发展有自己的节奏,目前的节奏是,云厂商竞争激烈,暂时普遍亏损。美国三朵云(亚马逊AWS、微软智能云、谷歌云)2022年掌握全球66%市场份额,营业利润总和超3700亿元。中国七朵云全球份额低于20%,七朵云均在战略亏损,2022年营业亏损总和超百亿元。
Cloud computing services were originally the most profitable part of the computing power industry chain. China has its own rhythm in technology demand and market development. The current rhythm is that cloud vendors are highly competitive and generally lose money for the time being. The three American clouds (Amazon AWS, Microsoft Smart Cloud, and Google Cloud) will hold 66% of the global market share in 2022, with a total operating profit of over 370 billion yuan. China's Qiduoyun's global share is less than 20%, and Qiduoyun is making strategic losses. The total operating loss in 2022 will exceed 10 billion yuan.
此时中国公司出现了一组矛盾:

· 科技公司技术基础好、研发支出高,原本最有条件发 展智能计算,但资本支出却在下滑。科技公司的资本 支出通常用于采购服务器、建数据中心、购置园区土 地等固定资产。这意味着智算业务投入会受到限制。

· 电信运营商资本支出高,扩大算力投入意愿强。但目 前大部分投入都集中于通用算力。由于研发支出低, 缺少技术积淀,智算资源也不足。电信运营商面对智 能算力浪潮时,反应迟缓。
At this time, a set of contradictions appeared in Chinese companies:

· Technology companies have a good technical foundation and high R&D expenditures. They are originally the most qualified to develop intelligent computing, but capital expenditures are declining. The capital expenditure of technology companies is usually used to purchase servers, build data centers, and purchase fixed assets such as park land. This means that investment in smart computing services will be limited.

· Telecom operators have high capital expenditures and strong willingness to expand computing power investment. But most of the current investment is concentrated on general computing power. Due to low R&D expenditure, lack of technology accumulation, and insufficient intellectual computing resources. Telecom operators were slow to respond to the wave of intelligent computing power.
微软、亚马逊的云业务利润规模可观,大模型有成熟商业路径。此时巨额资本支出、研发支出顺其自然,可以形成良性循环。反观国内,算力资源、技术关键投入期,中国公司尚未走上正循环。云业务普遍亏损,大模型会让亏损加剧,如果没有更好的策略,中国公司在智能算力领域的差距可能会被拉大。
The profit scale of Microsoft and Amazon's cloud business is considerable, and the large model has a mature business path. At this time, huge capital expenditures and R&D expenditures can go with the flow and form a virtuous circle. In contrast, in China, Chinese companies have not yet embarked on a positive cycle during the key investment period of computing power resources and technology. The cloud business generally loses money, and large models will intensify the losses. If there is no better strategy, the gap between Chinese companies in the field of intelligent computing power may be widened.

美国只有三朵公共云,三者在市场竞争中形成了规模效应,最大程度降低了算力成本。中国市场有七朵,电信运营商和科技公司是竞争关系,地方政府还在建大数据产业园、做国资云。中国市场分散且割裂,算力成本高,每家云都在亏损。长此以往,企业资本支出、研发支出无法摊薄,难以形成良性循环。
There are only three public clouds in the United States, and the three have formed a scale effect in the market competition, which minimizes the cost of computing power. There are seven in the Chinese market. Telecom operators and technology companies are in competition. Local governments are still building big data industrial parks and state-owned cloud. The Chinese market is fragmented and fragmented, the cost of computing power is high, and every cloud company is losing money. If things go on like this, corporate capital expenditures and R&D expenditures cannot be diluted, and it is difficult to form a virtuous circle.


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Eventine

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Please elaborate, what are they?
Software ecosystem (CUDA, etc.), AI specific hardware acceleration, memory size, power consumption, heat generation, precision, reliability, architectural optimizations, parallelization capabilities, the list goes on.

AMD MI100 advertised better bandwidth than NVIDIA A100, but today, almost everyone uses A100.

This is why benchmarks across a wide variety of applications are considered the final measure of quality.
 

BlackWindMnt

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Please elaborate, what are they?
Flops in this case means if the GPU does nothing more than simple vector calculation, if im not mistaken they use the fused multiple add ops per cycle to calculate theoretic gflops max.

In the real world scenarios you want to see how the memory architecture is setup because that is what you really want to do is get data in, do some calculation and get the result data out again.
 

european_guy

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ASML CEO: China generates 15% revenue for ASML in 2022 and a ban on the country will hasten its efforts to develop its own chip equipment

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China is working on building its own semiconductor industry, pouring billions into a chip-building initiative to catch up to the US. “If they cannot get those machines, they will develop them themselves,” said Peter Wennink (ASML CEO). “That will take time, but ultimately they will get there… The more you put them under pressure, the more likely it is that they will double up their efforts.”
 

xypher

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This seems inconsistent with the data tphuang posted earlier. Ascend910 chip performance is equal to A100 in terms of FLOPS at least, and we have seen them used in many city-level ai data center projects. Not saying it's wrong I'm just wondering why industry insiders would have that perception.
Primary reason is the lack of software optimization and support in DL frameworks. The same issue that AMD faces.
 

tonyget

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Primary reason is the lack of software optimization and support in DL frameworks. The same issue that AMD faces.

Yes, most of the time ecosystem is much more important than raw hardware performance. A good example is Raspberry Pi,there is alot of similar development board out there that features much powerful processor and lower price. But despite that,raspberry Pi's popularity remains high precisely because of the ecosystem advantages.

Nvidia's cuda ecosystem is so dominate in the GPU world,it's hard for others like AMD to compete
 

tokenanalyst

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JCET's chiplet oversized high-density fan-out flip-chip packaging has made a major breakthrough​


On May 5, JCET announced that the company’s Chiplet technology has made a major breakthrough. The ultra-large-sized high-density fan-out flip-chip technology realizes the industry-leading 102mm x 102mm ultra-high-density package integration of multiple heterogeneous chip flip-chips, which can be widely used in High value-added fields such as high-performance computing chips.

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Caption: JCET Chiplet’s ultra-large-sized high-density fan-out flip-chip packaging has achieved a technological breakthrough with an overall package size exceeding 10,000 square millimeters (schematic diagram)

At present, artificial intelligence, 5G communication, cloud computing and other high-speed computing and interconnection applications place higher and higher requirements on chip performance, and at the same time promote chip packaging technology to provide high power integrity and excellent thermal performance in large-size packages A cost-effective, scalable packaging solution with improved electromigration (EM) resistance.

Through continuous technology research and development and customer product verification, JCET adopts XDFOI™ Chiplet high-density multi-dimensional heterogeneous integration technology, combined with ultra-large fcLGA (flip-chip Land Grid Array) packaging technology, to integrate ultra-large high-density fan-out packaging units Flip chip directly on the fcLGA substrate, achieving a technological breakthrough in which the overall package size exceeds 10,000 square millimeters and the fan-out unit size exceeds 3,600 square millimeters. At the same time, JCET continues to optimize the ultra-large-size high-density fan-out integrated packaging technology, including process auxiliary fixtures, equipment upgrades, fan-out structure warpage control, double-sided passive device mounting technology, etc., and has developed a variety of Heat sink bonding materials and heat dissipation interface materials to meet the requirements of chip reliability, and the related technology has reached the leading level in the industry.

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tphuang

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寒武纪和百度双方均未对合作细节做出正式回应,或许存有这样的可能性:思元590在“文心一言”中可能小规模部署进行测试,比如用于推理应用中的小部分场景,进入大模型训练中的可能性或许并不大。

其实,在性能达到要求的前提下,国产芯片所能实现的成本优势,以及从防止“断供”、“卡脖子”的战略意义层面来看,都有其发展空间和必要性所在。在与一位业内人士的对话中,问其:如果英伟达A100的库存用完了,国内企业宁愿买“阉割版”的芯片,也不会买国产芯片吗?对方答:“如果国产算力芯片整体性价比能够达到英伟达的60%-70%,就有购买的意愿,可惜目前还达不到。”

对于大模型训练所需的算力芯片,业内认为“只有英伟达的A100和A800能够真正跑起来,国产GPU只能做小规模和中规模的训练和推理。”


Both Cambrian and Baidu have not made a formal response to the details of the cooperation. There may be such a possibility: Siyuan 590 may be deployed on a small scale for testing in "Wen Xin Yi Yan", such as small-scale applications used in reasoning applications. In some scenarios, the possibility of entering large model training may not be great.

In fact, on the premise that the performance meets the requirements, the cost advantages that domestic chips can achieve, as well as the strategic significance of preventing "supply cuts" and "stuck necks", have their development space and necessity. In a conversation with an industry insider, I asked him: If the inventory of Nvidia A100 runs out, would domestic companies prefer to buy "castrated version" chips instead of domestic chips? The other party replied: "If the overall cost performance of domestic computing power chips can reach 60%-70% of Nvidia's, there will be a willingness to buy, but unfortunately it has not yet been achieved."

As for the computing power chips required for large-scale model training, the industry believes that "only Nvidia's A100 and A800 can really run, and domestic GPUs can only do small-scale and medium-scale training and reasoning."
right, so i actually posted this one first back when Erniebot news first came out, but it's crap. It's a fake article. These articles that appear randomly on Chinese social media are often fake. Baidu actually said about the same time that they use probably a combination of Nvidia & kunlun chips. Nothing about Cambrian. Now we find out Erniebot will also use Biren GPUs.

Isn't silicon carbide a novel technology? At least for China?
not at all
Maybe 3C is new
this is most likely 6H

Interesting that it is still called Ascend 910 even the performance has increased by approximately 25% with the same power envelope 310W
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I am really surprised (and very happy) that SMIC can make Ascend 910, amazing ... is it really with 7nm ?

Wondering too whether SMIC can make enough Ascend 910 just for Chinese market

Even comparable with A100, I'd bet that Ascend 910 is significantly cheaper than A100 ($10K), do you know how much is the price of Ascend 910 ?
:rolleyes:
No one knows for sure. This is deliberately kept vague for obvious reasons
Software ecosystem (CUDA, etc.), AI specific hardware acceleration, memory size, power consumption, heat generation, precision, reliability, architectural optimizations, parallelization capabilities, the list goes on.

AMD MI100 advertised better bandwidth than NVIDIA A100, but today, almost everyone uses A100.

This is why benchmarks across a wide variety of applications are considered the final measure of quality.
People use A100 because everyone is used to using CUDA and A100. First mover advantage is huge.

In China, it appears that everyone prefers Hisilicon & pangu over other guys. Again, not something I expected given Baidu PaddlePaddle support among all the GPGPUs that came out in the past year. I thought Baidu was the leader in China
 

tokenanalyst

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Huahai Qingke (Hawtsing): CMP capabilities build a foundation and expand horizontally and vertically to open up room for growth​


  The company disclosed the 2022 annual report and quarterly report: In 2022, the company will achieve operating income of 1.649 billion yuan, a year-on-year +104.9%, a net profit of 502 million yuan attributable to the parent, a year-on-year +153.0%, and a net profit of 380 million yuan, a year-on-year +23.34 billion %. The company's revenue in 2022 is basically in line with our previous expectations, but the net profit situation is better than expected. The main reason is that the company's gross profit margin has risen, and the net profit margin of the daily scale release has also increased significantly. In 2022, the company's gross profit rate will be 47.7%, +3.0pct year-on-year, of which the gross profit rate of CMP equipment will increase by 4.9pct; the net profit rate will be 30.49%, +5.8pct year-on-year. Including R&D) decreased to 11.5%, a decrease of 5.0pct, the company's cost control ability is excellent.

  In 2023Q1, the revenue was 616 million yuan, which increased year-on-year, +76.9% year-on-year, and +19.5% month-on-month; in 23Q1, the net profit attributable to the parent company was 194 million yuan, which was +112.5% year-on-year. 23Q1 continued its strong growth trend. The product structure has changed, and the gross profit margin of the liquid supply system is slightly lower. The company's 23Q1 gross profit margin fell slightly by 0.7pct to 46.7%, and the net profit margin continued to increase to 31.5%. The company's net profit margin is higher than that of its peers.

  "Equipment + service" platform layout, horizontal expansion and vertical extension can be expected in the future.

  The company implements the "equipment + service" platform strategy with a multi-dimensional layout. In terms of vertical extension, the company is deeply involved in the main business of CMP equipment, and the company will - - face up: the research and development and verification of advanced manufacturing processes, accelerate the coverage of process nodes, and improve the performance of machine WPH; - - actively expand the application scenarios of CMP equipment to Advanced packaging, large silicon wafers, and Yanwei in the field of third-generation semiconductors.

  In terms of horizontal expansion: (1) Launch the Versatile series of thinning equipment, which can be compared with the high-end models of international counterparts. The GP300 thinning and polishing machine for 3DIC has sent samples for verification to many customers, and has obtained sales orders. It will be shipped in small batches in 2023. The GM300 used in the packaging field is planned to be sent to customers for verification this year. Under the chiplet trend, the market space is optimistic. (2) Collaborative supporting modules: The company’s CMP equipment needs to use measurement and cleaning modules. The company’s metal film thickness measurement equipment has been launched on the market separately, and small batch shipments have been realized; the cleaning equipment has been used in the wafer re-production line. Bring to market. In addition, the demand for HSDS/HCDS liquid supply systems is good, and they have been purchased in batches. (3) Key consumables and maintenance business: The company's stock of machines continues to expand, and the proportion of high-end CMP equipment shipments equipped with high-value 7-zone polishing heads has increased. We judge that this business will draw a second growth curve for the company. (4) Wafer regeneration business: production capacity will climb to 80,000 pieces/month by the end of 22 ( At the end of 22H1, it will be 50,000 pieces/month), and long-term stable supply has been achieved. In addition, the company's equity investment in Zhejiang Xinyu New Materials is expected to enter the field of ion implanters and improve the company's business layout.
 

Dark Father

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SMIC founder Zhang Rujing had been looking towards making a fab in China for quite a long time. If all he wanted was a steady job, he could have just continued working at TSMC. Even after he was dismissed from SMIC, he has continued to help bootstrap various foundries in mainland China including SiEn.

After he left, most of the C-suite personnel at SMIC are mainland Chinese. While there are a lot of Chinese from Taiwan at SMIC, they are not in control of the company. The company did start out with international capital, but it has long moved over to Chinese capital.
The man looked at starting a semi foundry in the late 1990s and early 2000s. No one in the political elite or general populace cared. Had snuffed to much Dengism starting from the late 1970s down to our pories. One big empty shopping mall with all the foundational intellectuel property in the hands of the Europsphere (Europe, Northern America and Australia) and low cost foxconn working horses for the Europesphere which needs to hang nets to prevent overworked coolies from committing seppuku.
 
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