Chinese semiconductor industry

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FairAndUnbiased

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Great points! It's almost as if these architectures were specifically created to make up for China's weaknesses. I find it interesting that both CFET and nVSAFET were developed in China with almost no foreign participation. I see nearly 25 different names, of which only 2 are non-Chinese. This is surprising to me for something like this where I expected more authors from America who typically lead this sort of research.
the white guy is working for China too! He works at Chinese Academy of Sciences Beijing and appears in both papers I listed. Note that his affiliation in 2020 was both Chinese Academy of Sciences and Mid Sweden University, then in 2022 paper, he dropped the affiliation with Sweden.
 

Jianguo

Junior Member
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Bro you're a good teacher, explaining such technical term for us common layman to understand, I appreciate it so much! :) So from your explanation it's possible, they are researching and improving the DUVL tech with ASML until a viable Chinese EUVL is introduced. Now my question is will these become mainstream and make EUVL redundant?
You only think I'm a good teacher because I'm not saying anything in enough detail to fly over your head. That's because I am not an expert. Actual experts are the ones in the industry and those writing research papers.

We should remind ourselves that most research never makes it out of the lab. However, these architectures appear so compelling that it would be stupid not to pursue them commercially. It's like SSMB, it would be stupid for China not to pursue it. From what little I know about these 2 architectures, they would eliminate the biggest reason why DUV was superseded by EUV from 7nm onwards. The extra equipment needed for DUV multi-patterning becomes ridiculous once we get to quad patterning, RELATIVE to EUV. Btw, I'm not saying DUV 7nm on FinFET could not compete against 7nm EUV, because it can, but only if it is China's 7nm DUV on FinFET competing against anybody else's 7nm EUV.

If CFET, nVSAFET or some other variation of a vertically integrated architecture were to replace FinFET for DUV, then we have a very interesting situation. What was the entry point for EUV at 7nm, you would now have commercially viable DUV processes to at least 5nm because most of the extra equipment, with most of the associated capital costs, lower yields, greater inefficiency you get with multi-patterned FinFET would be unnecessary. Yes, you would still need more equipment but nothing on the exponential scale that you need with multi-patterning on FinFET. Even more interesting is the following description of nVSAFET.

A novel n-type nanowire/nanosheet (NW/NS) vertical sandwich gate-all-around field-effect-transistor (nVSAFET) with self-aligned and replaced high-κ metal gates (HKMGs)

If this works the way it's described, it means that the self-aligning properties of SADP multi-patterning are built-in to this architecture. That means it could scale down to 3nm....and below, until it reaches some thermal threshold where it can't scale any further. Where would that leave EUV? Consider that we are already talking about how advanced packaging will be taking market share from the tail end of EUV 7nm, 5nm process nodes, and that's using FinFET. Now, what happens if you replace FinFET with nVSAFET and scale what would probably at best be packaged 7nm 2.5D/3D FinFET chips with packaged 3nm 2.5D/3D nVSAFET chips? You see where I'm going with this? It could get very, very ugly for TSMC, Samsung and ASML.

Do I think this will happen? Yes, but not anytime soon. Both the CFET and nVSAFET architectures were created and R&D done almost entirely by Chinese teams. This indirectly suggests that China is developing this by themselves and not as part of some larger international initiative. With this comes the main problem which is that EDA software supporting these architectures need to be developed first and its only recently that China had the entire domestic semicon supply chain available, and only fully to 28nm. Which means, it will still take years for such EDA software to complete development in parallel with China's domestic semicon equipment. Until then, forget about seeing anything other than planar, FinFET and GAAFET. I think China's LPP EUV will arrive way before this sees the light of day. It's even possible the SSMB EUV will arrive before this sees first silicon. In any case, China will see it's LPP EUV, SSMB EUV and CFET/nVSAFET designs so it's all good either way.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
You only think I'm a good teacher because I'm not saying anything in enough detail to fly over your head. That's because I am not an expert. Actual experts are the ones in the industry and those writing research papers.

We should remind ourselves that most research never makes it out of the lab. However, these architectures appear so compelling that it would be stupid not to pursue them commercially. It's like SSMB, it would be stupid for China not to pursue it. From what little I know about these 2 architectures, they would eliminate the biggest reason why DUV was superseded by EUV from 7nm onwards. The extra equipment needed for DUV multi-patterning becomes ridiculous once we get to quad patterning, RELATIVE to EUV. Btw, I'm not saying DUV 7nm on FinFET could not compete against 7nm EUV, because it can, but only if it is China's 7nm DUV on FinFET competing against anybody else's 7nm EUV.

If CFET, nVSAFET or some other variation of a vertically integrated architecture were to replace FinFET for DUV, then we have a very interesting situation. What was the entry point for EUV at 7nm, you would now have commercially viable DUV processes to at least 5nm because most of the extra equipment, with most of the associated capital costs, lower yields, greater inefficiency you get with multi-patterned FinFET would be unnecessary. Yes, you would still need more equipment but nothing on the exponential scale that you need with multi-patterning on FinFET. Even more interesting is the following description of nVSAFET.

A novel n-type nanowire/nanosheet (NW/NS) vertical sandwich gate-all-around field-effect-transistor (nVSAFET) with self-aligned and replaced high-κ metal gates (HKMGs)

If this works the way it's described, it means that the self-aligning properties of SADP multi-patterning are built-in to this architecture. That means it could scale down to 3nm....and below, until it reaches some thermal threshold where it can't scale any further. Where would that leave EUV? Consider that we are already talking about how advanced packaging will be taking market share from the tail end of EUV 7nm, 5nm process nodes, and that's using FinFET. Now, what happens if you replace FinFET with nVSAFET and scale what would probably at best be packaged 7nm 2.5D/3D FinFET chips with packaged 3nm 2.5D/3D nVSAFET chips? You see where I'm going with this? It could get very, very ugly for TSMC, Samsung and ASML.

Do I think this will happen? Yes, but not anytime soon. Both the CFET and nVSAFET architectures were created and R&D done almost entirely by Chinese teams. This indirectly suggests that China is developing this by themselves and not as part of some larger international initiative. With this comes the main problem which is that EDA software supporting these architectures need to be developed first and its only recently that China had the entire domestic semicon supply chain available, and only fully to 28nm. Which means, it will still take years for such EDA software to complete development in parallel with China's domestic semicon equipment. Until then, forget about seeing anything other than planar, FinFET and GAAFET. I think China's LPP EUV will arrive way before this sees the light of day. It's even possible the SSMB EUV will arrive before this sees first silicon. In any case, China will see it's LPP EUV, SSMB EUV and CFET/nVSAFET designs so it's all good either way.
Bro you say different architecture does it mean a new set of equipment? So it can be use to upgrade legacy process using DUVL? from your writing and its true of PLA /China modernization the Chinese have a 3 step strategy covering all possibilities.

1) Upgrading of Legacy equipment using DUVL (CFET, VSAFET)

2) introducing near peer equipment (LPP)

3) game changing tech (SSMB)
 

hvpc

Junior Member
Registered Member
This nVSAFET architecture looks like a variation on the CFET architecture @tokenanalyst posted about not long ago. Both nVSAFET and CFET have vertical stack structures using nanowires/nanosheets. Like wafer bonding but on the architecture level. What I find very interesting is nVSAFET claims design goals similar to GAAFET for 3nm and beyond without stating what you pointed out about its possible application with DUV. CFET actually summarizes what you said in that paper's "Intro" and "Conclusion". Intro and Conclusion clearly state that CFET can be applied with DUV.

View attachment 98293View attachment 98292
I don't know if I'm fully understanding this, but these architectures look like they can achieve equivalent 5nm and 7nm using DUV WITHOUT multi-patterning, as is necessary with FinFET. If so, China's lithography machines wouldn't need overlay precision <2.1nm to create equivalent 5nm/7nm. They could even use their older NXT:1950 machines and still create what would need the NXT:2100 using FinFET. I'm sort of fantasizing right now so maybe somebody can correct me? :oops:
MOL & BEOL (low metal & vias) are more litho intensive than FEOL, which FinFET, Nanosheet, Forksheet, etc. are. FEOL can be patterned with DUVL even at 3nm node. This is not the bottleneck that would require EUVL.

The paper also justify its claim of "3nm-equivalent" by using comparison of only SRAM density. A proper comparison would require looking at PPAc (power, performance, area, cost), which MOL, BEOL also need to be looked at. Without shrinking the low metal & via layer CD pitch, I don't see how vFET alone will achieve 3nm-like PPAc.,
 

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
MOL & BEOL (low metal & vias) are more litho intensive than FEOL, which FinFET, Nanosheet, Forksheet, etc. are. FEOL can be patterned with DUVL even at 3nm node. This is not the bottleneck that would require EUVL.

The paper also justify its claim of "3nm-equivalent" by using comparison of only SRAM density. A proper comparison would require looking at PPAc (power, performance, area, cost), which MOL, BEOL also need to be looked at. Without shrinking the low metal & via layer CD pitch, I don't see how vFET alone will achieve 3nm-like PPAc.,

Costs to production would be lower right? No expensive EUV setup is needed.

The costs in terms of electricity used in operation of this chip, (made from a different process) , could be higher, unless they figure out a way to make it lower.

Just my 2 cents as someone who knows nothing about this stuff, but trying to understand it the best I can.
 

Jianguo

Junior Member
Registered Member
Bro you say different architecture does it mean a new set of equipment? So it can be use to upgrade legacy process using DUVL? from your writing and its true of PLA /China modernization the Chinese have a 3 step strategy covering all possibilities.
Basically all the same kinds of equipment but the equipment mix is different because the "formula" to create the designs require more or less of each equipment category depending on the architecture and what your fab is primarily designed to produce. The equipment requirements reach ridiculous heights when you start getting into multi-patterning because parts of the production process become way more intensive than others so you're forced to order inordinate amounts of such equipment to keep up with production to prevent certain of the other equipment from laying idle. So, what decides what equipment is needed for any given architecture is the combination of that architecture along with what kinds of semiconductors are produced that keep the fab utilization as close to 100% capacity utilization as possible.


1) Upgrading of Legacy equipment using DUVL (CFET, VSAFET)

2) introducing near peer equipment (LPP)

3) game changing tech (SSMB)
Yup, they are doing it all. You could have expanded your list to 10 items and China would be in deep in all 10. It's nuts and fun to watch. :cool:
 

hvpc

Junior Member
Registered Member
Costs to production would be lower right? No expensive EUV setup is needed.
There were no need for EUVL in 7nm/5nm FEOL to start out with. The fin is made with DUVL SAQP (1 exposure + multiple deposition/etch steps). The Poly gate could also be made with DUVL SADP. Converting from FinFET to CFET or VSAFET, the FEOL patterning will mostly be DUVL SADP + some cut layers. The benefit of CFET/VSAFET is smaller cell sizes, which means higher transistor density, which is the parameter the paper looked at.
The costs in terms of electricity used in operation of this chip, (made from a different process) , could be higher, unless they figure out a way to make it lower.
optimization of BEOL to improve resistance and capacitance is what will impact the power consumption metric. Moving the power rail from BEOL to the backside of the wafer is also a way to reduce capacitance (hence lower power consumption). Backside power rail, which I think tsmc refers to as BPDN(backside power distribution network) target insertion is 2nm+ node (the "half-node" after 2nm).
Just my 2 cents as someone who knows nothing about this stuff, but trying to understand it the best I can.
At 7nm M0, 1 EUVL single exposure is much cheaper than 5 DUVL exposure steps. And the benefit from better D0 also put EUVL as a cheaper option. M1 is also another layer that would greatly benefit from cost saving going to EUVL.
 

Jianguo

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Registered Member
the white guy is working for China too! He works at Chinese Academy of Sciences Beijing and appears in both papers I listed. Note that his affiliation in 2020 was both Chinese Academy of Sciences and Mid Sweden University, then in 2022 paper, he dropped the affiliation with Sweden.
I just checked him out. This guy has been a professor at CAS since 2016. A bonafide friend and a credit to China.

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european_guy

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They never sleep....:D:D

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"Bringing a couple of thousand engineers to the United States would deny Chinese occupiers the full value of TSMC’s chip factories post-invasion and secure the sufficient talent to lead the herculean national effort to save the U.S. economy by crash-building a TSMC based in the United States."

"The U.S. government can identify Taiwan’s top engineers with unique knowledge gleaned from practical experience that only they have mastered <...> Washington would then engage with Taipei to gather the targeted engineers and quietly fly them to the United States"

"There is historical precedent for this idea. In Operation Paperclip immediately after World War II, the United States and its allies evacuated more than 1,500 scientists and engineers from Germany. German scientists were years ahead of their American and their Soviet counterparts in fields like rocketry, aeronautics, and synthetic fuels."

All these pearls all wisdom (/s) are from "The American Enterprise Institute", one of the many Washington, D.C.–based neocon think tanks.
 
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