Chinese semiconductor industry
- Thread starter Hendrik_2000
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Can you give us an English summary?
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
So to summarise recent events: SMIC is advancing really fast but it's still dependent on foreign DUV machines. SMEE is not advancing as fast as we wish it to be. China is independent from 40 nm and up on its own DUV machines. SMEE's 28 nm DUV machine has not gone as well as planned and it's currently not yet available.
So while we talk a lot about SMIC we should really talk about SMEE.
So while we talk a lot about SMIC we should really talk about SMEE.
The immediate problem was going with ASML rather than Nikon for immersion ArF. Japanese are bastards but they are Asian (as much as they would deny it) and we know how they think. They also have far more capability to resist the US than the Dutch, and no legal questions about their IP. It would've given more time to SMEE.
I see. Reading the thread over the last few days, it’s hard to get a clear picture of smee machine. Seems like some say it’s coming out in Q4 of this year or Q1 of next year while others day its delayed. And are we not even sure when the SSB800 and SSC800 is coming out? Please correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s my summary
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Well why should any one believe random posting on Weibo or any other platform?. People should not be disheartened because the first attempt is less than satisfactory. Like they say failure is the first step of success. Knowing the Chinese I guess they will draw lesson and keep persistence until the goal is reached. We saw this in many example Gas Turbine is one that stick out. I have been in this forum long enough and battle all kind of skeptic and derisive comment on China ability to produce high T/W engine. I always counselled them it take time and a lot of effort . Now after many years of miss the target , They have produced a decent engine. It take ASML decades of research to produce what they got and you people expecting China to do it in 3 years come on have patient. I am sure they work 16 hours X 7days. It will come. People who afraid of setback will never be succeed!
Anyway if the get the bug out of production of 7nm that should give them time to perfect the 26nm DUV
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Cool, looks like CETC also has been doing some low volume advanced chips using Ion Beam lithography and etching, that is one of the reason they have become really good doing Ion implanters.
LOL
ASML positioned themselves in the Chinese market in a way Nikon didn't even dreamed. When Nikon was licking Intel boots, ASML was
was manufacturing products in China:
Doing top tier R&D in China:
They Even collaborated with their competition:
That is how you entice an entire market.
But I do agree with the Asian part.
ASML present themselves as the "people supplier" just because their products use technologies from over the world while Nikon do almost everything by themselves, Nikon is also more reserved about doing business and marketing like some Japanese companies. The huge problem with ASML "people supplier" strategy is that once you use Uncle Sam tech and he tell you to pick sides he expect that you pick HIS side. Nikon is less susceptible to that kind of pressure than ASML.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
The US throwing Taiwan under the bus and like an abused wife, Taiwan is going to take it like a good obedient Geisha without a complaint. Anyone notice the language to push the US semiconductor bill was all about breaking dependency on China. China? They denied chips to China hoping to force China to surrender to their demands. Oh yes it's because to the West, they see no difference from China and Taiwan because they're both foreign and interchangeable to scare Americans into supporting this bill. Self-reliance mean no foreigners including ally Taiwan that's until after they steal all of Taiwan's secrets. Say bye to the South Korean chip industry too.
True, ASML does have a large presence in China while Nikon keeps everything in house. And once you pick a supplier for these critical equipments you tend to keep picking them, creating vendor lock-in.
There is one thing to note: Nikon does have a lower price point for their tools. In the same article, they note that TSMC had 3 transactions with ASML for $210 million. So overall they're paying ~70 million USD per tool from ASML in the same year, so double the price for an ASML tool on average.
There is definitely a reason for this. On one hand you have lower Japanese costs due to generally lower wages and costs of components, more in-house IP instead of spending on acquisitions, etc. But another reason could be the productivity. numbers than You mentioned that Nikon doesn't use dual stage, is this the reason?
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