Quickie
Colonel
That is what I was thinking. So basically it means that the radars has similar performance on a per T/R module basis.
Chinese Radar Developments - KLJ series and others
- Thread starter indochina
- Start date
That is what I was thinking. So basically it means that the radars has similar performance on a per T/R module basis.
Hyperwarp
Captain
170 km vs 5 m2 do what range for 3 m 2 or eventualy 1 m2 ? exist on the web a chart or formulas or a converter for that please
Attached a simple one (see attachment): (RangeX / RangeY) = (RCSX / RCSY)^0.25
AN/APG-77 (LPI Mode) - 220 to 230 km for 1m^2 target (take upper value 230).
For 3m^2 roughly 300 km
Irbis-E (Max power) - 375 to 400 km for 3m^2 target (take upper value 400).
For 1m^2 roughly 300 km
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
The sighting of KLJ-7A is creating a buzz among JF-17 fan Here they are discussing it on quwa
KLJ-7A: PROPOSED AESA RADAR FOR THE JF-17 BLOCK-III
The Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET) has unveiled a new active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar at the Zhuhai Air Show, reportedly for use with the .
Designated the KLJ-7A, it appears that NRIET will market the new AESA radar as a replacement to the KLJ-7 and KLJ-7V2 currently onboard the JF-17 Block-I and Block-II, respectively.
The KLJ-7A’s feature list includes track while scan, multi-object targeting and multi-target engagement, and synthetic aperture radar with ground moving target identification (among others).
Specific details, such as the materials or number of transceiver modules (TRM), were not listed. According to Henri Kenhmann (via ), NRIET’s deputy director Wang Hongzhe stated that the radar has a maximum range of 170 km (likely in reference to a radar cross-section of 5m2).
Kenhmann also reported that the KLJ-7A can simultaneously track 15 targets and engage four.
Notes & Comments:
Based on the photos being circulated on several online discussion mediums, the KLJ-7A appears to be a small radar suite, one appropriate for the JF-17’s limited internal space. The name may indicate that the KLJ-7A is a direct development of the KLJ-7, but the images suggest that the KLJ-7A is a distinct design. In other words, it does not appear that the KLJ-7A and KLJ-7/V2 share anything beyond the name.
The inclusion of an AESA radar is the centerpiece of the JF-17 Block-III program, the first major iterative update of the JF-17 Thunder lightweight multi-role fighter.
In general, an AESA radar would provide greatly improved electronic counter-countermeasure (ECCM) capabilities, meaning, higher resistance to enemy active electronic warfare (EW) jamming.
This is achieved using hundreds of solid-state TRMs, each serving as a ‘micro-radar’ of sorts transmitting a unique signal simultaneously. For jamming pods, this makes the task of identifying, recording and re-transmitting all those signals, which change with each pulse, difficult.
This method also helps with shielding the radar from being detected by enemy radar warning receivers – i.e. giving it a ‘low-probability-of-intercept.’
Although Leonardo-Finmeccanica’s Vixen AESA radar line was identified as an option by PAF officials (during the 2015 Paris Air Show), NRIET’s KLJ-7A seems like it was designed , and as such, could potentially offer a superior balance of performance, integration complexity, and price.
KLJ-7A: PROPOSED AESA RADAR FOR THE JF-17 BLOCK-III
The Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET) has unveiled a new active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar at the Zhuhai Air Show, reportedly for use with the .
Designated the KLJ-7A, it appears that NRIET will market the new AESA radar as a replacement to the KLJ-7 and KLJ-7V2 currently onboard the JF-17 Block-I and Block-II, respectively.
The KLJ-7A’s feature list includes track while scan, multi-object targeting and multi-target engagement, and synthetic aperture radar with ground moving target identification (among others).
Specific details, such as the materials or number of transceiver modules (TRM), were not listed. According to Henri Kenhmann (via ), NRIET’s deputy director Wang Hongzhe stated that the radar has a maximum range of 170 km (likely in reference to a radar cross-section of 5m2).
Kenhmann also reported that the KLJ-7A can simultaneously track 15 targets and engage four.
Notes & Comments:
Based on the photos being circulated on several online discussion mediums, the KLJ-7A appears to be a small radar suite, one appropriate for the JF-17’s limited internal space. The name may indicate that the KLJ-7A is a direct development of the KLJ-7, but the images suggest that the KLJ-7A is a distinct design. In other words, it does not appear that the KLJ-7A and KLJ-7/V2 share anything beyond the name.
The inclusion of an AESA radar is the centerpiece of the JF-17 Block-III program, the first major iterative update of the JF-17 Thunder lightweight multi-role fighter.
In general, an AESA radar would provide greatly improved electronic counter-countermeasure (ECCM) capabilities, meaning, higher resistance to enemy active electronic warfare (EW) jamming.
This is achieved using hundreds of solid-state TRMs, each serving as a ‘micro-radar’ of sorts transmitting a unique signal simultaneously. For jamming pods, this makes the task of identifying, recording and re-transmitting all those signals, which change with each pulse, difficult.
This method also helps with shielding the radar from being detected by enemy radar warning receivers – i.e. giving it a ‘low-probability-of-intercept.’
Although Leonardo-Finmeccanica’s Vixen AESA radar line was identified as an option by PAF officials (during the 2015 Paris Air Show), NRIET’s KLJ-7A seems like it was designed , and as such, could potentially offer a superior balance of performance, integration complexity, and price.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
From Jane
China’s CETC readies long-range air defence radars for export
Kelvin Wong - IHS Jane's International Defence Review
06 November 2017
State-owned electronics and radar systems developer China Electronics Technology Group Corporation (CETC) is taking aim at Asia-Pacific and Middle East countries, which have traditionally relied on Western and Russian radars, with its latest long-range air surveillance and early warning systems, Jane’s sources have revealed.
The SLC-7 L-band multifunction phased array radar is claimed to be capable of detecting low observable air threats at ranges of over 300 km. (Ling Hongyi)
CETC’s Nanjing Institute of Electronic Technology (NRIET) subsidiary has completed development of the indigenous road-mobile SLC-7 L-band multifunction phased array radar system. According to specifications provided by the company, the solid-state SLC-7 radar is capable of detecting a target with a radar cross section of 0.05 m2 at ranges in excess of 450 km, with a claimed detection probability of 80%. Maximum detection altitude is being quoted as 30,000 m.
“The performance of the SLC-7 radar is even greater than that of the Great Pine system,” the source claimed, referring to the EL/M-2080S ‘Green Pine Block-B' phased-array search, acquisition, and fire-control radar developed by Israeli company Elta Systems.
According to CETC, the SLC-7 radar is also capable of detecting and tracking tactical ballistic missiles – with an RCS of 0.01 m 2 – at ranges in excess of 300 km, with a detection probability of 90%.
The SLC-7 radar also features a high level of mobility. A six-person crew can set up and tear down the radar within 15 minutes, enabling it to be swiftly relocated to address gaps in the early warning detection network or complement fixed arrays for increased tracking performance.
CETC has also completed development of its YLC-8B medium/high altitude long range 3D surveillance radar, which is road, rail, and sea transportable and requires less than 30 minutes for a six-person crew to set up and tear down.
China’s CETC readies long-range air defence radars for export
Kelvin Wong - IHS Jane's International Defence Review
06 November 2017
State-owned electronics and radar systems developer China Electronics Technology Group Corporation (CETC) is taking aim at Asia-Pacific and Middle East countries, which have traditionally relied on Western and Russian radars, with its latest long-range air surveillance and early warning systems, Jane’s sources have revealed.
CETC’s Nanjing Institute of Electronic Technology (NRIET) subsidiary has completed development of the indigenous road-mobile SLC-7 L-band multifunction phased array radar system. According to specifications provided by the company, the solid-state SLC-7 radar is capable of detecting a target with a radar cross section of 0.05 m2 at ranges in excess of 450 km, with a claimed detection probability of 80%. Maximum detection altitude is being quoted as 30,000 m.
“The performance of the SLC-7 radar is even greater than that of the Great Pine system,” the source claimed, referring to the EL/M-2080S ‘Green Pine Block-B' phased-array search, acquisition, and fire-control radar developed by Israeli company Elta Systems.
According to CETC, the SLC-7 radar is also capable of detecting and tracking tactical ballistic missiles – with an RCS of 0.01 m 2 – at ranges in excess of 300 km, with a detection probability of 90%.
The SLC-7 radar also features a high level of mobility. A six-person crew can set up and tear down the radar within 15 minutes, enabling it to be swiftly relocated to address gaps in the early warning detection network or complement fixed arrays for increased tracking performance.
CETC has also completed development of its YLC-8B medium/high altitude long range 3D surveillance radar, which is road, rail, and sea transportable and requires less than 30 minutes for a six-person crew to set up and tear down.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
From next big future Brian Wang sort of repetition of my post
US and China racing to deploy quantum ghost imaging in satellites for stealth plane tracking
| November 27, 2017 |
Above – A 2009 US Air Force Research lab presenter on quantum ghost imaging satellites.
Quantum ghost imaging can achieve unprecedented sensitivity by detecting not just the extremely small amount of light straying off a dim target, but also its interactions with other light in the surrounding environment to obtain more information than traditional methods.
The ghost imaging satellite would have two cameras, one aiming at the targeted area of interest with a bucket-like, single pixel sensor while the other camera measured variations in a wider field of light across the environment. By analyzing and merging the signals received by the two cameras with a set of sophisticated algorithms in quantum physics, scientists could conjure up the imaging of an object with extremely high definition previously thought impossible using conventional methods. The ghost camera could also identify the physical nature or even chemical composition of a target, according to Gong. This meant the military would be able to distinguish decoys such as fake fighter jets on display in an airfield or missile launchers hidden under a camouflage canopy.
Tang Lingli, a researcher with the Academy of Opto-Electronics, Chinese Academy of Sciences in Beijing, said numerous new devices had been built, tested in the field and were ready for deployment on ground-based radar stations, planes and airships.
Gong Wenlin, research director at the Key Laboratory for Quantum Optics, Chinese Academy of Sciences in Shanghai – whose team is building the prototype ghost imaging device for satellite missions – said their technology was designed to catch “invisibles” like the B-2s.
He said his lab, led by prominent quantum optics physicist Han Shensheng, would complete a prototype by 2020 with an aim to test the technology in space before 2025. By 2030 he said there would be some large-scale applications.
While ghost imaging has already been tested on ground-based systems, Gong’s lab is in a race with overseas competitors, including the US Army Research Laboratory, to launch the world’s first ghost imaging satellite.
The chinese team showed the engineering feasibility of the technology with a ground experiment in 2011. Three years later the US army lab announced similar results.
required for image reconstruction in ghost imaging. This technique allows an N pixel image to be produced with far less than N measurements and may have applications in LIDAR and microscopy.
Remote sensing
Ghost imaging is being considered for application in remote-sensing systems as a possible competitor with imaging laser radars (LADAR). A theoretical performance comparison between a pulsed, computational ghost imager and a pulsed, floodlight-illumination imaging laser radar identified scenarios in which a reflective ghost-imaging system has advantages.
X-ray ghost imaging
A ghost-imaging experiment for hard x-rays was recently achieved using data obtained at the European Synchrotron. Here, speckled pulses of x-rays from individual electron synchrotron bunches were used to generate a ghost-image basis, enabling proof-of-concept for experimental x-ray ghost imaging. At the same time that this experiment was reported, a Fourier-space variant of x-ray ghost imaging was published.
NASA also worked on Ghost imaging and found the beam splitter was not needed
This is an advanced version of the famous Hanbury Brown Twiss intensity interferometer.
US and China racing to deploy quantum ghost imaging in satellites for stealth plane tracking
| November 27, 2017 |
Above – A 2009 US Air Force Research lab presenter on quantum ghost imaging satellites.
Quantum ghost imaging can achieve unprecedented sensitivity by detecting not just the extremely small amount of light straying off a dim target, but also its interactions with other light in the surrounding environment to obtain more information than traditional methods.
The ghost imaging satellite would have two cameras, one aiming at the targeted area of interest with a bucket-like, single pixel sensor while the other camera measured variations in a wider field of light across the environment. By analyzing and merging the signals received by the two cameras with a set of sophisticated algorithms in quantum physics, scientists could conjure up the imaging of an object with extremely high definition previously thought impossible using conventional methods. The ghost camera could also identify the physical nature or even chemical composition of a target, according to Gong. This meant the military would be able to distinguish decoys such as fake fighter jets on display in an airfield or missile launchers hidden under a camouflage canopy.
Gong Wenlin, research director at the Key Laboratory for Quantum Optics, Chinese Academy of Sciences in Shanghai – whose team is building the prototype ghost imaging device for satellite missions – said their technology was designed to catch “invisibles” like the B-2s.
He said his lab, led by prominent quantum optics physicist Han Shensheng, would complete a prototype by 2020 with an aim to test the technology in space before 2025. By 2030 he said there would be some large-scale applications.
While ghost imaging has already been tested on ground-based systems, Gong’s lab is in a race with overseas competitors, including the US Army Research Laboratory, to launch the world’s first ghost imaging satellite.
The chinese team showed the engineering feasibility of the technology with a ground experiment in 2011. Three years later the US army lab announced similar results.
required for image reconstruction in ghost imaging. This technique allows an N pixel image to be produced with far less than N measurements and may have applications in LIDAR and microscopy.
Remote sensing
Ghost imaging is being considered for application in remote-sensing systems as a possible competitor with imaging laser radars (LADAR). A theoretical performance comparison between a pulsed, computational ghost imager and a pulsed, floodlight-illumination imaging laser radar identified scenarios in which a reflective ghost-imaging system has advantages.
X-ray ghost imaging
A ghost-imaging experiment for hard x-rays was recently achieved using data obtained at the European Synchrotron. Here, speckled pulses of x-rays from individual electron synchrotron bunches were used to generate a ghost-image basis, enabling proof-of-concept for experimental x-ray ghost imaging. At the same time that this experiment was reported, a Fourier-space variant of x-ray ghost imaging was published.
NASA also worked on Ghost imaging and found the beam splitter was not needed
This is an advanced version of the famous Hanbury Brown Twiss intensity interferometer.
Was this posted before? it is a comprehensive review of the history of Chinese radar development.
Some quick takeaways:
Some quick takeaways:
- Chinese radar development was very backward before 1990
- Chinese learned about the basic design of Pulse Doppler radar from AN/APG66V2, EL/M-2032, Grifo-7/s, and N001
- The NRIET Type 1473 for first gen J10 was a major breakthrough in China's radar development, it is still very much behind
- J10 equipped with Type 1473 with improved DSP chips easily beat N001 on China's first gen J11/Su27
- China had since greatly improved (1) antenna design, (2) DSP chips (3) ADC
- JF-17's radar was small but very good radar, beats Grifo-S, RDY, etc.
- J10B was delayed waiting for the PESA radar, but eventually ended up with a AESA radar instead, this also explains why J10B and J10C were almost completed at the same time with very a short interval
- Today China's main focus is AESA, the latest radar for 5th gen fighters (assuming for J-20) is the 3rd gen tile type AESA, GaN and very good DSP capability
- The new small size (550mm) radar for JF-17's new version is better performing than the radars on (Indian's) Su-30
Some previous discussions in this thread was related to CPU and super computers. In reality radars do not mainly depend on general purpose processing unit (CPU) but instead the focus is a specialized digital signal processing unit, namely DSP. The same type of chips is used in cameras to process still image and videos, as well as in TVs for decoding video signals. Radars as small computers could use (more than one) CPUs for various purposes, (especially we are approaching 6th gen jets design where each small sub system is a collection of many computers) but the processing capability is mainly decided by DSP.
Super computers are mostly used to solve simulations, or applications that requires huge amount of data loaded into memory at the same time. For the most part, super computers are not related to radar design.
That is probably the reason why it was relatively simple to improve radar design and manufacturing with enough resources especially engineers. A larger more general purpose system would be considerably harder. In the future I think the AI technology being developed today also helps to process the signals to detect, identify, and track targets.
Super computers are mostly used to solve simulations, or applications that requires huge amount of data loaded into memory at the same time. For the most part, super computers are not related to radar design.
That is probably the reason why it was relatively simple to improve radar design and manufacturing with enough resources especially engineers. A larger more general purpose system would be considerably harder. In the future I think the AI technology being developed today also helps to process the signals to detect, identify, and track targets.
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And nowadays DSP tend to be replaced by FPGA (Field Programmable Gate Array) and even GPU (Graphic Processing Unit) when there is enough room for them.
DSP generally uses low-level programming languages (Assembler), this requires time to both develop and master, and people mastering those languages become very rare. FPGA on the other hand uses higher level languages like C or C++ which more people master and are easier to implement, but less optimized.
Some APG-68 (F-16) upgrades includes use of FPGA for Programmable Signal Processor, most recent radars (post 2000) uses FPGA as prime signal processing unit.
I'm confident China also uses FPGA's on their most recent radars, but haven't seen anything about that yet.
The story of the J-10B’s radar gets even more confusing...