Chinese Radar Developments - KLJ series and others

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Power output is a basic technical spec to determine state of AESA capability. If such basic information is not known, how can you reasonably conclude or speculate that the Chinese have made progress to western standards? T/R module count is insufficient because it doesn't give a qualitative dimension.

Information concerning power output of military radar is concerned as classified since it's the first required information in defeating it. That is why they collect information through ELINT crafts but the people obtaining that information would probably consider it not at 100% during peace time scanning.
One of the sliver of gold from the PLAN locking on to a JMSDF vessel was obtaining the frequency and strength of their targeting radar which is fixed at maximum strength.
 

Brumby

Major
T/R Module Packages don't tell the whole story but they seem to indicate to me a general idea on the level of advancement the particular radar set has reached. Comparing AESA radar between aircraft based on T/R Module counts should also be in the context of internal volume per each aircraft's nose cone, because it varies.
Agree. In fact poster inst discussed this at length in some of the earlier messages.

I have a question for anyone in the know on this subject. Is the output power also largely a component of the radar architecture in addition to T/R module density? I tend to imagine it being something along the lines of GPU's, where differences between design architecture (even on the same process node ex. 28nm) can mean differences in energy efficiency and power output between sets. If that were the case it would be impossible to do a 1 to 1 comparison between two AESA of the same rough volume and module density, without the actual manufacturer specs.
T/R power output both in terms of peak and average to my knowledge represent a sum of many technologies which collectively and their incremental advances over the last 15-20 years got to where it is today. For example, it is said that the Russians with their tech is only able to extract 5 W peak power with present know how. The US has advanced to the 15-20 W range. It is speculated that the T/R modules on the PAKFA might output around 10-12 W peak power. A number of things affects this power output, including quality of T/R, packaging technology, cooling capacity, technology of integrated circuits, architectural design affecting transmit and receive losses, and general efficiency.

Regarding objective comparison, given that peak power of radar is a function of peak power of T/R modules multiply by number of T/R modules, knowing both variables does give us a sense of where each claims stand relative to others.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Information concerning power output of military radar is concerned as classified since it's the first required information in defeating it. That is why they collect information through ELINT crafts but the people obtaining that information would probably consider it not at 100% during peace time scanning.
One of the sliver of gold from the PLAN locking on to a JMSDF vessel was obtaining the frequency and strength of their targeting radar which is fixed at maximum strength.

I think only the peak power of a radar isn't necessarily as classified as much as its specific frequency anymore than knowing the band in which a radar operates at on paper.
But knowing the peak power of a radar and its other characteristics together would obviously be useful in an ELINT sense.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese had a pretty good electronic orbat of many of the older types of radars on Chinese naval vessels (I think it was an 053H variant back in that incident?), given the relatively close confines of the ECS and the sizable number of ELINT aircraft on all sides.
 

Brumby

Major
I think only the peak power of a radar isn't necessarily as classified as much as its specific frequency anymore than knowing the band in which a radar operates at on paper.
But knowing the peak power of a radar and its other characteristics together would obviously be useful in an ELINT sense.

I agree. I thought AESA with LPI is meant to emit at minimal power as the pulse is spread over frequencies. I am convinced that the only way to jam AESA is using noise jamming rather than deceptive jamming. Hence knowing specific peak output is irrelevant unless I am missing something regarding AESA technology.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
I think only the peak power of a radar isn't necessarily as classified as much as its specific frequency anymore than knowing the band in which a radar operates at on paper.
But knowing the peak power of a radar and its other characteristics together would obviously be useful in an ELINT sense.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese had a pretty good electronic orbat of many of the older types of radars on Chinese naval vessels (I think it was an 053H variant back in that incident?), given the relatively close confines of the ECS and the sizable number of ELINT aircraft on all sides.

I don't think knowing which specific frequency the radar operates is that much important since they can change frequency for various reasons. Having said that the people collecting information would be interested the range of frequency the radar can operate and algorithm in jumping of frequencies of the radar which is probably controlled by software.
As for jamming radar you'll need to match the frequency of the radar is transmitting or scatter radar reflective chaff. You'll need maximum out put to know how much power you'll need to drown their radar transmission.
 

Brumby

Major
Credits go to Henri K., who first posted this in November 2015...

Chinese Ku-band AESA radar, possibly for air-to-air missiles:
View attachment 25630

The radar has 832 T/R modules, each requiring 200 mW of power, and a diameter of 300 mm.
Can you please provide the full translation. I tried copy to google translate but I think yours is an image and is not possible to copy.
 
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