Chinese purchase of Su-35

Air Force Brat · Feb 14, 2019

kwaigonegin said:
Agreed, everything I read about the 35 tells me it has world class kinematics and superior low speed handling characteristics not to mention world class acceleration.
In the hands of a well trained driver I wouldn't bet against it vs ANY current front line fighters in WVR
I would even say if armed with the latest R73 variants (R74?) on a pure CQC scenario, it would be difficult to find anything that can decisively beat it at present even F22. They would be evenly matched for the most part. It would eat F35 in WVR..

The Su-35 is very, very good kinematically, in fact I would call it equal to the Su-57 and F-22, but to suggest it would "eat" the F-35 is to ignore physics, like the F-16, the F-35 is physically smaller, lighter, and has "amazing thrust",,, so before we go writing it off, I suggest you check the "break-out" at RIAT 2018, from approx. 350 to 400knts, he damn near turns that thing inside out, that is a full 9G turn in full afterburner...

In fact with the FCS dialed back, AF-02 pulled 9.9 Gs in very early testing, so while I have no doubt the Su-35 is top of the class when it comes to "turn and burn", the F-35 is a very serious contender with all that LockMart forward fuselage lifting body technology, the F-35 is making a lot more lift, OVT will definitely "push" things in the right direction, but the F-35A is right up there...

so wait until March, Dojo is going to have those 9G turns coming right up, with that "mind bending" "break-out"!

Air Force Brat · Feb 14, 2019

kwaigonegin said:
Agreed, everything I read about the 35 tells me it has world class kinematics and superior low speed handling characteristics not to mention world class acceleration.
In the hands of a well trained driver I wouldn't bet against it vs ANY current front line fighters in WVR
I would even say if armed with the latest R73 variants (R74?) on a pure CQC scenario, it would be difficult to find anything that can decisively beat it at present even F22. They would be evenly matched for the most part. It would eat F35 in WVR..

The Su-35 is very, very good kinematically, in fact I would call it equal to the Su-57 and F-22, but to suggest it would "eat" the F-35 is to ignore physics, like the F-16, the F-35 is physically smaller, lighter, and has "amazing thrust",,, so before we go writing it off, I suggest you check the "break-out" at RIAT 2018, from approx. 350 to 400knts, he damn near turns that thing inside out, that is a full 9G turn in full afterburner...

In fact with the FCS dialed back, AF-02 pulled 9.9 Gs in very early testing, so while I have no doubt the Su-35 is top of the class when it comes to "turn and burn", the F-35 is a very serious contender with all that LockMart forward fuselage lifting body technology, the F-35 is making a lot more lift, OVT will definitely "push" things in the right direction, but the F-35A is right up there...

so wait until March, Dojo is going to have those 9G turns coming right up, with that "mind bending" "break-out"!

Deino · Feb 15, 2019

Guys ... can we stay on topic, which is the Su-35 in PLAAF service.

So please no general comparisons, no F-35 hype.

Deino

Gloire_bb · Feb 15, 2019

Hyperwarp said:
Off-course it is! This isn't the 90's or early 2000's. Russia would never sell their best version even to India let alone China. There is always a downgrade or complete omission of sensitive equipment or operations.

As far as i know, the only actual difference between Chinese and Russian Su-35s is FOF equipment(and, as it surfaces out, missile armament options). I am not talking about common sense here, there were such reports in Russian right before first deliveries had begun.

Hyperwarp said:
Regarding the Mach 2.35 max speed, that is as useful as the 400 km value for the radar

A very good comparacement! Both specs are seen as quite important in Russian service, important enough to pay a hefty premium for them, but significantly less so worldwide.

Air Force Brat · Feb 15, 2019

Hyperwarp said:
Off-course it is! This isn't the 90's or early 2000's. Russia would never sell their best version even to India let alone China. There is always a downgrade or complete omission of sensitive equipment or operations. This isn't something unique to Russia either. When exporting, many countries do this. The best version of the Su-35 is with the RuAF. The PLAAF version is a dumbed-down version. There was joke going around that even the L-band arrays were replaced with wood . Not just avionics, but weapons. Even the J-10C can be armed with a PL-15. Who gets the 1st shot even if the Su-35 initially gets the 1st look. J-10B on the other hand does not carry the PL-15.

Again, understand that as a package (not just avionics), the RuAF Su-35 and the PLAAF Su-35 are not in the same league.

Regarding the Mach 2.35 max speed, that is as useful as the 400 km value for the radar (For the Su-35 it is slightly less at Mach 2.25 due to heavy intake modifications). A big potential advantage the Su-35 have over all other PLAAF fighters (maybe barring the J-20) is supercruise. I used 'potential' because we don't know the payload when supercruising. If it is in a clean config then that's not going to help. But if it is with the wingtip ECM pods and a few R-77, then that is a big plus.

I'm gonna call BS on Russia ripping China off, China coughed up 2 Billion dollars for 24 aircraft, they got their money's worth, those Su-35 are making a name for theirselves, its insulting to insinuate that China doesn't know what they're doing... and were sold an inferior model aircraft...

hkbc · Feb 15, 2019

Gloire_bb said:
A very good comparacement! Both specs are seen as quite important in Russian service, important enough to pay a hefty premium for them, but significantly less so worldwide.

The Russian Federation has immense area, being able to detect at distance and close in rapidly would indeed be of utmost importance especially as the population is half what it was in Soviet times but the area that needs to be defended hasn't reduced by anywhere near that amount, the days of throwing up massed air armies is stymied by a smaller population thus proportionately fewer pilots!

The tyranny of distance is less pronounced for China plus, no disrespect to India, it doesn't have a military alliance parked on its western land border with hundreds of Gen 4 fighters to worry about.

Hyperwarp · Feb 15, 2019

Air Force Brat said:
I'm gonna call BS on Russia ripping China off, China coughed up 2 Billion dollars for 24 aircraft, they got their money's worth, those Su-35 are making a name for theirselves, its insulting to insinuate that China doesn't know what they're doing... and were sold an inferior model aircraft...

It is not ripping off if they knew what they are getting. PLAAF knew what the Russians were willing to give. Su-35 brings in something the PLAAF never had - A supermaneuverable fighter! Both the USAF and IAF have had supermaneuverable fighters in service for around 15 years. Those Su-35 are going to be invaluable for a new generation of pilots and the tactics they adopt. As an added bonus, Shenyang will surely study the TVC integration, elimination of canards and airbrake etc. Even the J-16 still uses that barn door sized airbrake.

Biscuits · Feb 15, 2019

Hyperwarp said:
It is not ripping off if they knew what they are getting. PLAAF knew what the Russians were willing to give. Su-35 brings in something the PLAAF never had - A supermaneuverable fighter! Both the USAF and IAF have had supermaneuverable fighters in service for around 15 years. Those Su-35 are going to be invaluable for a new generation of pilots and the tactics they adopt. As an added bonus, Shenyang will surely study the TVC integration, elimination of canards and airbrake etc. Even the J-16 still uses that barn door sized airbrake.

Su30MKK and J10 are supermanueverable.

Also the J20 outperforms both agility wise according to pilot interviews, but we haven’t seen footage of it pushed to it’s limit yet.

Unless I’m mistaken, the J16 does not have canards.

Russia is throwing around Su35 and their equivalents like candies to 3rd world nations. So it makes sense to buy a handful (especially if the cost is low) in order to be prepared for them in case PLAAF faces them in the future. I would guess their configuration is the same as other export upgraded flankers. If it was upgraded or downgraded, it would ruin a part of the training utility.

Also the plane might have economical solutions that can be baked into future projects similar to JF-17. Stuff like the high powered PESA etc. that could be an alternative to PLAAF radar in export

Air Force Brat · Feb 15, 2019

Hyperwarp said:
It is not ripping off if they knew what they are getting. PLAAF knew what the Russians were willing to give. Su-35 brings in something the PLAAF never had - A supermaneuverable fighter! Both the USAF and IAF have had supermaneuverable fighters in service for around 15 years. Those Su-35 are going to be invaluable for a new generation of pilots and the tactics they adopt. As an added bonus, Shenyang will surely study the TVC integration, elimination of canards and airbrake etc. Even the J-16 still uses that barn door sized airbrake.

That barn door airbrake is extremely functional, it allows you to pop it open and bring the power back up, of particular benefit on the J-15 coming aboard ship!

The Chinese bird may have a few weapons systems and avionics changes to suit the Chinese, its not a "down graded bird", its just not, but it is China's first "supermaneuverable" aircraft, the J-10C with OVT is the second....

Air Force Brat · Feb 15, 2019

Biscuits said:
Su30MKK and J10 are supermanueverable.

Also the J20 outperforms both agility wise according to pilot interviews, but we haven’t seen footage of it pushed to it’s limit yet.

Unless I’m mistaken, the J16 does not have canards.

Russia is throwing around Su35 and their equivalents like candies to 3rd world nations. So it makes sense to buy a handful (especially if the cost is low) in order to be prepared for them in case PLAAF faces them in the future. I would guess their configuration is the same as other export upgraded flankers. If it was upgraded or downgraded, it would ruin a part of the training utility.

Also the plane might have economical solutions that can be baked into future projects similar to JF-17. Stuff like the high powered PESA etc. that could be an alternative to PLAAF radar in export

All Flankers and the J-10 are very maneuverable, but the Su-35 with OVT is another animal altogether... particularly when we are talking post-stall maneuvers....

Chinese purchase of Su-35

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hkbc

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