Equation
Lieutenant General
Better yes, but is it affordable enough for all?
Chinese Martial Arts Thread
- Thread starter solarz
- Start date
vesicles
Colonel
I believe most in China can afford the alternatives. In fact, when faced with serious illnesses, vast majority of Chinese would go to modern hospitals. It's just that the mythical power of Chinese medicine has permeated through so much everyday life. It's just annoying... Imagine constantly dealing with this nonsense...
We have a HUGE poster on our fridge listing all the ideal combinations of various food items that will supposedly cure diseases and maintain good health. Like combining pork with cabbage and stuff like that. It's such eye sore but we can't take it down because my in-laws believe this will help us in the long term... I asked why? How did someone come up with this chart? Did anyone do any experiments? Did some expert sit at a table and whip this stuff up out of nowhere???
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solarz
Brigadier
Now, I don't think TCM is "all" BS. As mentioned before, the collected knowledge of plants and fauna is very valuable.
As for Qi, I think this is just an attempt by the ancient Chinese to explain the various circulation processes that happen in the human body. Like you said before, observational data is valuable, and the theories around Qi and Yin-Yang are based on observations, only there are a lot of erroneous extrapolations mixed in.
I think there are a lot of things worth studying in TCM, but I also think that it's important to study it scientifically. We can use TCM theories as hypotheses and test them scientifically. For example, if TCM says such and such Qi pathway causes such and such effect, the first thing is to see if that's actually the case. If we see that the phenomenon does happen, then we should do experiments to see why it happens.
What I find is that a lot of TCM ideas have factual basis, but get warped because people rote repeat these ideas without an understanding of the factual context. For example, the old belief that a woman should not wash herself until at least a month after giving birth. That makes a lot of sense when we didn't have heated homes and hot water, and the risk of catching pneumonia was very real, but it makes no sense in modern times.
Come to think of it, that's exactly the case with TMA as well! People see these fancy poses and maneuvers in Taiji or Mantis-style or whatever, and think that's how you're supposed to fight. Well no, those moves are for specific circumstances. They are for building muscle memory, so that when the circumstance comes up, you can react without conscious thought. In a real fight, you use whatever is most useful at the moment.
vesicles
Colonel
This is when you need to be careful about the difference between science vs. pseudo-science. Just because you change something and detect a response, it doesn't mean there is a causal correlation.
First thing first, they need to show Qi actually exists. Then we talk about testing its effects. Without evidence of its existence, everything else is just a waste of time.
Observation is real, but the explanation is BS. When the theory is wrong, you can improve. Let's take your example of a woman should not wash herself until at least a month after giving birth. If we assume it's because of Qi flowing issue, then we should never change this practice. If we assume that it is because of heated homes and hot water, then we should abandon such practice immediately if you live in a house with A/C and modern plumbing...
solarz
Brigadier
You don't have to think about Qi or what not. You could just see if poking someone with a needle in this particular spot elicits a specific reaction. If so, why?
vesicles
Colonel
Then it could the nerve. It could be the muscle. It could be the skin. So many things could be happening. None of them has anything to do with qi...
That's why few scientists believe in it. It's not that we are all so close-minded and "would not believe it unless we see it with our own eyes". It's that scientifically speaking, you must demonstrate existence before moving on to testing effects. And logically, this is also how examination of anything should proceed. How can you discuss effects without even knowing it actually exists?
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Well Vesicles, I don't blame you on not believing Chinese Medicine and the whole Qi thing, as there are many phony and a lot of misunderstanding of Chinese word translations, especially mythicizing things. Ying and Yang is a very basic concept and it is easy for people to understand. In Chinese medicine concept, it just means don't over consume one thing, or it could mean your body chemical balance is not great. The terms in Chinese may not be scientific when comparing to the West, but people have to understand that, back in the days, elements were describe by water, fire, earth and something else before the periodic table. In Hong Kong and pretty much the rest of the world, Chinese Medicine could be practiced without a license, and a lot of people just learn from masters or by reading books without fully understanding the practice, and have caused bad reputation among the industry.
For the word QI in Chinese medicine, it means a lot of Different things. Think of how western medicine, for some reason, always change original English word and latinize it. (Where the discovery was made in modern times but the scientific community always latinize it). The word 血氣 or blood air(QI) could mean blood throw and strength of the flow. I think the example used for not washing herself should be, not washing the head relates to the word, 寒氣,or cold air. This explains people getting a cold or for example, if you wash you hair and don't dry it, you can get sick, dizzy or headaches when the wind blows towards it. The other example I used to explain it to a friend who was studying to be a nurse where he didn't think Chinese medicine works because of the terms. I had to explained it using this example. If a person eat a lot of BBQ food, chips, baked and fried food, this may cause pimples (I think that is what it is called in English), and there is a medical term for that in western medicine (I forgot what my nurse friend told me). I told my friend that the category be called 熱氣 (hot air) of the food for the causation. It doesn't sound scientific because we are so used to the way western medical terms to describe things, and it would sound foreign. I think the word QI is used to describe something, like how we describe the type of pains we feel. (like, burning sensation, needle stabbing pain, sharp pain)
The reason why Chinese people are going to hospitals is because they have modern technology at detecting the cause of the issues and can get it fix quickly. Chinese Medicine Hospital in China are also using those technology to detect the issue and using their method to cure it. Remember, western medicine also admits that the ways some medicine works have too much side effects at treating the patients and there are other proven remedies (no those crazy magic potions or heuristic) that they prove it works, due to the remedy contains the same chemical agent, but also other agent that would negate the side effect or reducing it
Acupuncture as you said is a reaction in nervous system, but they also use the word QI to describe a few things
Chinese medicine have made trial and errors, just like how western medicine works. Think of snake venom and inventing antidote. The biggest change, from what I remember was the usage of lens and glass that really advance astrology and medicine or science in that matter, (microscope) where China has fallen behind. Also with the rejection of adopting western practice from the dynastic era, increased the gap.
As for QI in kung fu, I think the term means something else rather than the myth kungfu novels says or what the things you don't believe in (so you are not wrong in not believing what they are describing). Remember Chinese uses a lot of idioms and other words to describe things and it does get mistranslated even in Chinese. I don't know if you have watch the show, human weapons (it is on youtube), it pretty much describe all type of martial arts move with physics.
There are a few reason Scientist don't believe in things they don't understand. One of them is language barrier in understanding what they actually mean (not literal translations) and the other is their comfort zone. Remember how scientist stated that we can't fly and a lot of impossibilities back in the days.
If you go to a government licensed practitioner, they can better explain the symptoms and why the remedies work. The Chinese doctor that I go to, is licensed in Vancouver Canada and he understand certain western medicine terms and can relate to it. In China, they are using scientific method to explain why certain remedy works.
For the word QI in Chinese medicine, it means a lot of Different things. Think of how western medicine, for some reason, always change original English word and latinize it. (Where the discovery was made in modern times but the scientific community always latinize it). The word 血氣 or blood air(QI) could mean blood throw and strength of the flow. I think the example used for not washing herself should be, not washing the head relates to the word, 寒氣,or cold air. This explains people getting a cold or for example, if you wash you hair and don't dry it, you can get sick, dizzy or headaches when the wind blows towards it. The other example I used to explain it to a friend who was studying to be a nurse where he didn't think Chinese medicine works because of the terms. I had to explained it using this example. If a person eat a lot of BBQ food, chips, baked and fried food, this may cause pimples (I think that is what it is called in English), and there is a medical term for that in western medicine (I forgot what my nurse friend told me). I told my friend that the category be called 熱氣 (hot air) of the food for the causation. It doesn't sound scientific because we are so used to the way western medical terms to describe things, and it would sound foreign. I think the word QI is used to describe something, like how we describe the type of pains we feel. (like, burning sensation, needle stabbing pain, sharp pain)
The reason why Chinese people are going to hospitals is because they have modern technology at detecting the cause of the issues and can get it fix quickly. Chinese Medicine Hospital in China are also using those technology to detect the issue and using their method to cure it. Remember, western medicine also admits that the ways some medicine works have too much side effects at treating the patients and there are other proven remedies (no those crazy magic potions or heuristic) that they prove it works, due to the remedy contains the same chemical agent, but also other agent that would negate the side effect or reducing it
Acupuncture as you said is a reaction in nervous system, but they also use the word QI to describe a few things
Chinese medicine have made trial and errors, just like how western medicine works. Think of snake venom and inventing antidote. The biggest change, from what I remember was the usage of lens and glass that really advance astrology and medicine or science in that matter, (microscope) where China has fallen behind. Also with the rejection of adopting western practice from the dynastic era, increased the gap.
As for QI in kung fu, I think the term means something else rather than the myth kungfu novels says or what the things you don't believe in (so you are not wrong in not believing what they are describing). Remember Chinese uses a lot of idioms and other words to describe things and it does get mistranslated even in Chinese. I don't know if you have watch the show, human weapons (it is on youtube), it pretty much describe all type of martial arts move with physics.
There are a few reason Scientist don't believe in things they don't understand. One of them is language barrier in understanding what they actually mean (not literal translations) and the other is their comfort zone. Remember how scientist stated that we can't fly and a lot of impossibilities back in the days.
If you go to a government licensed practitioner, they can better explain the symptoms and why the remedies work. The Chinese doctor that I go to, is licensed in Vancouver Canada and he understand certain western medicine terms and can relate to it. In China, they are using scientific method to explain why certain remedy works.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
I don't know if traditional Chinese/Asian medicine actually works but I have a friend whose wife had an infection that affected the nerves in her face so half her face literally was paralyzed. Her eye lid had to be taped closed. She went to a doctor who treated her and told her that she was looking at three months before her face would be gradually back to normal. Someone recommended to her to go to SF Chinatown to a traditional Chinese medicine "doctor" and he concocted a mixture of ingredients to make into a tea for her to drink. She was back to normal in three weeks.
Personally I don't like to take any kind of medicine unless I have to but sore throats annoy me and when my throat starts to get scratchy and I don't do anything it usually follows with a sore throat and then a fever. So I slap on the back of my neck a Salonpas or a lesser known Tokuhan patch before I go to sleep and when I wake up, the sore throat has been cured. If it's already a full-blown sore throat, you'll notice a big difference after waking up. Salonpas is suppose to be for sore muscles. Well it cures sore throats as well. The over-the counter sore throat medicines numb the throat just so you can get through it. They don't cure it. Interesting when I tell non-Asians about it half will try it and the other half automatically reject it because they see it as Asian medicine.
Personally I don't like to take any kind of medicine unless I have to but sore throats annoy me and when my throat starts to get scratchy and I don't do anything it usually follows with a sore throat and then a fever. So I slap on the back of my neck a Salonpas or a lesser known Tokuhan patch before I go to sleep and when I wake up, the sore throat has been cured. If it's already a full-blown sore throat, you'll notice a big difference after waking up. Salonpas is suppose to be for sore muscles. Well it cures sore throats as well. The over-the counter sore throat medicines numb the throat just so you can get through it. They don't cure it. Interesting when I tell non-Asians about it half will try it and the other half automatically reject it because they see it as Asian medicine.
solarz
Brigadier
I think the vagueness of the terms are a problem for the Chinese as well. Take your example of 热气 from foods high in fat. Yes, they're likely to cause pimples, but the problem is that there are a host of other foods that are considered "hot" in TCM. Take Lychee for example. The common wisdom is that you shouldn't eat too much Lychee because it is a very hot fruit. However, I love Lychee and always eat a ton of it when it's in season, and I've never had any "hot" reaction to it. In TCM, Lychee should have the same "hot" effect as BBQ ribs (mmmmm.....), and that's a problem.
As for martial arts, keep in mind that "demonstrations" are not real fighting. Like Bruce Lee famously said, "boards don't hit back". With conditioning, humans can perform amazing feats, but real combat requires actual combat training, not just physical conditioning.
Very correct, physical conditioning prepares you for a fight. If you don't know what you are doing, you will become the board and get beaten
For lychee, they don't use "Qi" they use 毒 or poison to explain the condition. I think vagueness cause people to not bother in taking a scientific look at Chinese medicine and re-engineer the terms for medical studies. Technically, if you are to study it, they are not that vague. They are used as categories of conditions, rather than atmoically identifying some of the issue.
For lychee, they don't use "Qi" they use 毒 or poison to explain the condition. I think vagueness cause people to not bother in taking a scientific look at Chinese medicine and re-engineer the terms for medical studies. Technically, if you are to study it, they are not that vague. They are used as categories of conditions, rather than atmoically identifying some of the issue.