Chinese Hypersonic Developments (HGVs/HCMs)

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Not exact, but somewhat related (and as a side note/reminder).

Yeah, I'd like to call bullcr4p if anyone still cites that "1800-2500 kilometers" range figure for the DF-17, which should be regarded as erroneous, if not ridiculous - All while the LRHW is to be (if not already) tested to distances of 3300-4450 kilometers (or taking the midpoint, 3925 kilometers) in the Atlantic.

007GbPZaly1hrz8a79valj314n0m9gs3.jpg

(Yes, I know that 3300-4450 kilometers' and 3925 kilometers' figures for the LRHW test is for a (near-)straight line travel path. But so is DF-17's true range.)
 
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totenchan

Junior Member
Registered Member
Not exact, but somewhat related (and as a side note/reminder).

Yeah, I'd like to call bullcr4p if anyone still cites that "1800-2500 kilometers" range figure for the DF-17, which should be regarded as erroneous, if not ridiculous - All while the LRHW is to be (if not already) tested to distances of 3300-4450 kilometers (or taking the midpoint, 3925 kilometers) in the Atlantic.

View attachment 132936

(Yes, I know that 3300-4450 kilometers' and 3925 kilometers' figures for the LRHW test is for a (near-)straight line travel path. But so is DF-17's true range.)
Do we have NOTAMs for confirmed DF-17 launches?
 

CMP

Senior Member
Registered Member
Not exact, but somewhat related (and as a side note/reminder).

Yeah, I'd like to call bullcr4p if anyone still cites that "1800-2500 kilometers" range figure for the DF-17, which should be regarded as erroneous, if not ridiculous - All while the LRHW is to be (if not already) tested to distances of 3300-4450 kilometers (or taking the midpoint, 3925 kilometers) in the Atlantic.

View attachment 132936

(Yes, I know that 3300-4450 kilometers' and 3925 kilometers' figures for the LRHW test is for a (near-)straight line travel path. But so is DF-17's true range.)
It's due to American racial, cultural, political, technological, scientific, economic, and military dominance/superiority.
 

totenchan

Junior Member
Registered Member
It's due to American racial, cultural, political, technological, scientific, economic, and military dominance/superiority.
Or they just lazily extrapolated based on old estimates of DF-16 range, or the tiny glide body on a huge booster on the LRHW results in range gains over what the DF-17 is able to achieve. Or they extrapolated based on a NOTAMs, which is why I am asking about those.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Or they just lazily extrapolated based on old estimates of DF-16 range,
If they do so, it is a good evidence that they are lying if they know what a true glider is. A symetric "glider" like LRHW and DF-21D adds about 1/3 range than its pure ballistic counterpart. A true glider on the same booster more than doubles the range of the pure ballistic ounterpart.

or the tiny glide body on a huge booster on the LRHW results in range gains over what the DF-17 is able to achieve. Or they extrapolated based on a NOTAMs, which is why I am asking about those.
That changes the ratio of powered flight (ballistic) vs. "gliding" phase. It does give the "glider" higher initial velocity to begin "gliding", that will translate to longer range. But that advantage is only relative to itself. To have a real advantage over other design such as DF-17, LRHW must be much larger than DF-17 which doesn't look so.
 
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gpt

Junior Member
Registered Member
Do we have NOTAMs for confirmed DF-17 launches?
DF-17 tests out of Jiuquan/Taiyuan targeting sites in Xinjiang are around 1250-2500km but NOTAM information alone doesn't paint a full picture at all. DF-27 is classed as a 8,000 km weapon but only flew a quarter that in testing. Russia's Sarmat flew a third of its range from Plesetsk to Kura, for example.

You really have to model it out and we don't have all the details. Did a back of the envelope calculation with basic variables (initial glide altitude and velocity, g, simple estimate for energy loss in glide phase and assuming even a consevative L/D ratio of 2-3 (
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)) and the glide phase portion of flight can still easily cover 2000-2500km.
 
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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
?? You mean.. an MaRV? The LRHW is an HGV.

Are you maybe confusing it with the earlier PGS which was an MaRV?
All information available to me says LRHW is based on C-HGB which is a symmetric body as shown here.
polnorazmernyi-maket-perspektivnogo-amerikanskogo-universalnogo-giperzvukovo-11llnf1m-1583057161.t.jpg


This subject of what US glider is has been discussed and clarified multiple times in this forum, the US military is applying a fancy concept (HGV) to a mature tech to save face like their country did to the word "marriage", let's not waste any more time on it, at least not this thread.
 
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CMP

Senior Member
Registered Member
?? You mean.. an MaRV? The LRHW is an HGV.

Are you maybe confusing it with the earlier PGS which was an MaRV?
Nope. It's definitely not a proper HGV. Not even close. Has it occurred to you that the government, military, and MIC in the US are only calling it an HGV because they don't want to appear like they're are THAT far behind China? Kind of like when AT&T called fake 5G actual 5G.

This is the common-hypersonic glide body carried by the LRHW:
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This is what an actual HGV looks like (scroll down on the CSIS page as the pictures are lower down):
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Notice anything distinctively different about the shaping? Do you understand how that will contribute to the "gliding" phase? One is a cone with fins all around it. The other has a wide flat bottom with two tapered sides and round top. There is no question that the common-hypersonic glide body will be shit at gliding and is just an American version of DF-21D. To be fair, it makes sense that the US would want this capability, as China also mastered it first before moving on to a proper HGV. Not to mention the US lacks the robust hypersonic wind tunnel infrastructure that China already has.

I remember reading a bit into the difference between US wind tunnels and China's new wind tunnels. If I recall correctly, the US wind tunnels can run longer tests at supersonic (but not hypersonic) speeds and the Chinese wind tunnels can run shorter tests at hypersonic speeds. My guess is wind tunnels that can run longer tests at hypersonic speeds just weren't technically feasible or cost-effective, so running numerous shorter tests at the required hypersonic speeds was the Chinese compromise.

As for why the US has fallen behind in wind tunnels...well...my guess is because all their best and brightest work in business, AI, software, law, finance, medicine, or even dentistry. The quality talent just isn't there anymore. And/or the contractors sold a fantasy to the government that supercomputer simulations and real world testing alone are enough, so there's no need to build hypersonic wind tunnels. Given even China takes a LONG time to design and build hypersonic wind tunnels (if I recall correctly, 5+ years from start to finish), it would probably take the US 20+ years lol. My opinion is that you need supercomputer simulations, wind tunnel testing, AND real world testing to work out all the kinks and cross-validate results across different prototype designs. Only then can you finally select and further refine the most appropriate one.
 
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ismellcopium

Junior Member
Registered Member
All information available to me says LRHW is based on C-HGB which is a symmetric body as shown here.
polnorazmernyi-maket-perspektivnogo-amerikanskogo-universalnogo-giperzvukovo-11llnf1m-1583057161.t.jpg


This subject of what US glider is has been discussed and clarified multiple times in this forum, the US military is applying a fancy concept (HGV) to a mature tech to save face like their country did to the word "marriage", let's not waste any more time on it, at least not this thread.
Wow... I assumed the new C-HGB would at least be a proper wedged HGV like the ARRW. I don't even know how it's possible to consistently underperform this hard especially when they've been testing those for ages now.

Offtopic but that does make me wonder which other big ticket procurements recently may in fact perform significantly worse than generally assumed.. the B-21 comes to mind (doubly so because it's kept surprisingly well within budget). US industry sometimes seems to be trending toward India levels of (in)ability, to be honest.
 
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