Chinese General news resource thread

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solarz

Brigadier
2. HK govt under British rule modernized the city to first world economy, one of the Five Asian Tigers, rule of law, freedom of speech, one of the least corrupted states(top20) and even above US, one of the freest economy and to do business, established ICAC, modernized health care, education, modernized transportation systems, 4th international financial center after Tokyo New York London, it's own major competitive GDP, HKU ranking top 50 university, competing for too spots with Singapore for many aspects, list goes on. Everything we have today came from the days of British rule and city building and infrastructure building. Even HK's PTU was established by RHKPF when under the crown. And our Counterterrorist unit the SDU was established, trained, and modeled after the SAS. SDU cross trained with the British and American SOFs. If HK is its own state we will be a blue state like Singapore. Singapore is almost a state equivalent of what we are. We even have our own identity in the WTO, although I'm not sure if this occurred under HKSAR a or British rule.

Actually, Hong Kong's financial success is solely, and I do mean solely, due to the fact that it was the only trade gateway between the West and the 1.2 billion market of Mainland China. Everything else you mentioned was built with that financial success.

Remember the Kowloon Walled City? It was literally the stuff that dystopian sci-fi is made of. Where was the British rule of law then?

I believe that in the end, HK is resenting the loss of their premier financial status. This has been an inevitable development since China's economic ascension, and HK has only been able to stay as prosperous as they are due to many preferential policies from the central government. If HK had stayed under British rule and had to compete on equal footing with cities like Shanghai and Shenzhen, it would have fared a lot worse than it does now.

I suspect most HKers realize this, which is why we're seeing the so-called "pro-democracy" movement fizzle out.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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@geographer

Race and gender are stupid indicators as to whether one should have the right to vote, I agree. Rather, the ability to follow, comprehend, and think in the long term what policies presented by different parties should be the decision. If there were some fair way to test all individuals for this quantity, then that would be the way to see whether some people can vote and whether some cannot. Of course, race and gender are also associated with SES, which is in turn associated with the ability to comprehend the complexities of governance and which vote to give where. So democracy can never truly be properly realized without greater equality and equity.

But I digress. The key point I'm making is yes, I believe many people, irregardless of race, gender, or SES, do not vote in governments that are objectively the best for their nation. Rather self interest, emotion, and influence of media are bigger factors.

Whether those factors are enough to adversely effect the democratic process to a degree that meaningful harm will come to a nation depends on the nation's preexisting level of development.

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I agree that autocratic governments do tend towards megalomania, and I would argue that there are more unsuccessful autocracies than unsuccessful democracies. But at the same time, if you can get autocracy right, by striking a balance between how much one lone individual can influence a country's goings on, and an autocracy which has a proper means of receiving constructive feedback from the populace while retaining its hold on decision making power.


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Ease of doing business for private companies =/= ability of a nation to deliver infrastructure

And yes, NIMBY individuals definitely may have legitimate concerns. As do many of the villagers who are unfairly compensated by the Chinese government in exchange for their land for urban development or infrastructure projects. Corruption is a big problem where local officials would take land, develop it, and sell it off to make profit while giving the villagers nothing. that's a big problem, but that's not something inherent to the autocratic system; that is to say, it is something that can potentially be changed.

But there are also projects which could potentially save lives, prevent disasters, incentivize larger area growth, which on balance may well be worth the greivances of a village. It is unfortunate, and I completely sympathize those whose homes are destroyed and in that situation a democratic system may well have been a better turn out for that village. But then we are missing the potential bigger picture. The needs of a many may well be more important than the needs of a few. It would be best if the needs of that few were properly compensated, but it's either one road or the other.

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And yes, I agree that good leaders should understand their people. But there is a difference between talking to a few people during an election campaign, participating in a debate or two, answering twitter questions, and actually acting on people's needs.

Furthermore, that is assuming leaders in autocracies do not recognize the needs of the people, or recognize them poorer than leaders in democracies. Also, at least in China, leaders do not rise to high positions without first proving themselves in lower levels of governance. Depending on the measure of success used, I interpret that as an indirect measure of a leader's ability to understand local to larger issues. But for any leader regardless of the type of political system, the higher you go the more disconnected you come with the average person, especially in larger and more powerful countries. The question is whether there is a practically significant difference between autocratic and democratic leaders in understanding and more importantly acting on the concerns of normal people.

the additional benefit of autocracies, is that the leaders are aware that if they do not have the support of the people, then they will lose their rule and likely have no way to get it back. whereas in democracies, parties which fall out of favour can spring back, only slightly reshuffled. So in a way, autocracies have more incentive to act with meaningful consequences.
(The flipside of that, is how many autocracies tend to repress the people and use propaganda to instill themselves in their rule rather than actually producing policies that benefit the population and the nation. Such autocracies are untenable and repulsive, but it does not mean all autocracies are.)


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As for "knowing which way the wind is blowing" --- normal people are busy with their own lives, they often cannot stand back and observe the big picture. They are also often under the influence of big businesses and media conglomerates, which have the power to send their own wafts of wind and change the individual's perception of the truth. If a political system relies on people having the capacity to sift the truth from the filth then I think the system is a little bit flawed.

At the end of the day, I'm not saying autocracies are better then democracies. Rather I'm saying that the idea of blanketing every nation at every stage of development to become a democracy is a poor one.
My claim is not an ambitious one, I just need instances where a more autocratic form of governance have or may have produced a better result than a more democratic one. To back up the idea that all countries should be democracies requires every instance of governance ever to have been more successful if it were democratic.

The way we should determine a nation's political system imo should be dependent upon two dimensions, which can be broken down into a number of subcomponents if one wants (I won't do that because I'm lazy):
-What level of development is it at where universal sufferage will be able to work uninhibited by other factors such as corruption, media manipulation, bribery, and lobbying, and if democracy are inhibited by those factors, will it cause meaningful harm to the nation?
-Whether the level of development is sufficient to allow the perks of universal sufferage be worth the more diluted government power and constraints to election cycles? (i.e.: are there pressing humanitarian, geostrategic, economic challenges where democracy may hinder rather than enable)
 
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solarz

Brigadier
That's why the World Bank ranked America fourth in the world for Ease of Doing Business in 2013. Democracies formed the top 22 in that list while China was 96th!

Really? You should tell that to Huawei or Minmetals.

The World Bank ranking is a joke. It's basically the old boys clubs rating their own club as better than others.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Geographer, also, I want to add that democracies do tend to be more stable in the long term, but they also have the ability to be far more incompetent knowing they face no consequence bigger than getting voted out of power.

Autocracies know that if there is substantial social discontent, not only might their party rule collapse, but the nation might collapse as well. OTOH autocracies also have more power to drive faster change.

So I believe we must must balance those different pros and cons when deliberating what system is best for a nation.
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
The World Bank and the IMF are controlled by Western countries. Naturally the criteria is going to be slanted Western. It's just like the BBC "world" opinion poll of other countries. Most of the countries polled are Western. Naturally they're going to lean in favor of Western countries and against countries that aren't Western. The Little League World Series just happened. Why is it that one of the two teams in the big game is always reserved for a US team while every other country has to battle it out for the other spot? And the US team many times isn't the winner in the end.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Why are Americans so against the notion of a "One-World government?" Ironically it's the true democracy they don't like simply because they don't have the numbers. If one actually believed in democratic principles, they would be for a one-world government. Americans are a minority in this world. Add the whole Western world and they're still not a majority. If the Western world made up the majority of the world, then they would want a one-world government. The irony is Western democracies are doing now what they never want to see happen in a one-world government. And that is someone else dictating to them what they have to do.

BTW for the people can only think in black and white... just because I wrote this, it doesn't mean I believe in a one-world government. People that are paranoid over a one-world government is the one of many things that shows how it won't work. People who hide behind democracy but don't like the concept of a one-world government are just hypocrites. When you eliminate all the contradictions from hypocrisy, what's left is just plain selfishness. Not a cause or the need to find what's best for everyone else. How undemocratic.
First A true Democracy on a large scale is impossible. Unless you wire every member of the populace into a borg collective, There can never be a population who can vote on every decision. The pattern of the US is a Democratic republic and that is the aim of "Democratization " . Next The US is not just against A world government and we are not the only group who do not want one either. All Politics is local. Voters are more worried about there peice of life then that of others. So if India and China get all the votes what happens to the needs of others. If there is a disaster in Somalia do you thousands of miles away really care? Are you willing to make the right choices for them? especially if it hits you in the wallet? be honest here. the only way a Earth Gov would work is if every thing is developed to the same level across the market. no developing or emerging markets everything leveled and even then you would still have to deal with issues. so argue its selfish all you want Mace. It is and for all the right reasons. look at Europe the EU right now is the sub scale model of a Earth gov. and it's a disaster. the European parliament is a sham the real power is pure bureaucracy. the needs of individual nations are neglected as there national govs are toothless to enact policies the Euro has knocked the wind from what was left of the European national economies.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
First A true Democracy on a large scale is impossible. Unless you wire every member of the populace into a borg collective, There can never be a population who can vote on every decision. The pattern of the US is a Democratic republic and that is the aim of "Democratization " . Next The US is not just against A world government and we are not the only group who do not want one either. All Politics is local. Voters are more worried about there peice of life then that of others. So if India and China get all the votes what happens to the needs of others. If there is a disaster in Somalia do you thousands of miles away really care? Are you willing to make the right choices for them? especially if it hits you in the wallet? be honest here. the only way a Earth Gov would work is if every thing is developed to the same level across the market. no developing or emerging markets everything leveled and even then you would still have to deal with issues. so argue its selfish all you want Mace. It is and for all the right reasons. look at Europe the EU right now is the sub scale model of a Earth gov. and it's a disaster. the European parliament is a sham the real power is pure bureaucracy. the needs of individual nations are neglected as there national govs are toothless to enact policies the Euro has knocked the wind from what was left of the European national economies.

I did say I wasn't for a one-world government for many reasons... A lot of the stuff you wrote doesn't apply to what I said because I didn't argue for it. I'm playing devils advocate for those that hide behind democracy. The preachers don't expect to be tested on their faith in democracy. Resistance to being tested on one's faith in democracy is the first sign of selfishness. One would pass with flying colors if one truly believed in democracy. They hold out democracy as if it's beyond them and not selfishness and therefore people must obey without question. But when one turns out to be a hypocrite it is selfishness at the heart of it. Everyone hates a hypocrite even hypocrites hate hypocrites because they know themselves hypocrites are motivated by selfishness. The fact is one person/one vote in a direct democracy is what is peddled to the world.

If one expects democracy than one better practice what they preach. There's no excuses. You can have a representative democracy framed just like the US for a one-world government and Westerners against a one-world government will still be against it simply because Americans and Westerners don't make the majority of the world. It doesn't matter if it's unrealistic or not. It still applies even if it's not a true democracy of one person/one vote in a one-world government. Why does the West want China to turn into a democracy? It isn't principle. It's because people think China will be more obedient

So if India and China get all the votes what happens to the needs of others. If there is a disaster in Somalia do you thousands of miles away really care? Are you willing to make the right choices for them? especially if it hits you in the wallet?

And China and India can say that right now when the West expects compliance to their wishes. Is it different because the West always frames it to what's best for the entire world? China and India can spin the same. Just like the BBC world opinion poll makes it look like the world has a negative opinion of China when it's just most of the limited number of countries that were polled are favoring Western.
 
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1. IF Beijing is so unpopular in HK how come the Occupy Central are losing politically?

2. Just because you live in HK doesn't that doesn't mean your words are golden. That doesn't mean I can't have a say about it? You can criticize my hometown of Houston all you want I don't care, but that doesn't mean I will dismiss all of your claims and opinions. It seems to me you have a problem with different view points.

3. So called HK "culture" and "identity" does NOT make it right to have its own city state.

4. How can you assume that? Assumption is not logic. I can also claim that you are sticking to your "Pro-separatist" against Beijing as well? After all it's you that advocated HK to be a separate city state against the will of the majority of mainland Chinese.

1. OC is losing its appeal from pockets of majority for its more combative tactics and disruptive natures of businesses. That's about it. The anti-OC rally literally said "anti-OC, anti-violent methods for HK's direct election". None of this have anything to do with how popular Beijing is. It's also failed logic to say OC is unpopular, therefore Beijing is popular. Both are totally 2 different things.

2. My words ain't golden, but I can tell you for certain my opinions came from countless revisions based on what I've seen, the sources I've looked into, direct experiences before my eyes, witnessing, talking to numerous people around me, further reads, etc. So no I don't base my words on my pure thoughts and nothing to back it up. For you, you are entitled to your own opinion. However if you're gonna start arguing about it, then you are expected to know what you're talking about, otherwise it's pointless. This whole time is about you not knowing what you're talking about.

3. No one is saying for it to be its own city-state. I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from.

4. I never proposed for separatism. Are you hallucinating? And what am I assuming?
 
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mr.bean

Junior Member
The World Bank and the IMF are controlled by Western countries. Naturally the criteria is going to be slanted Western. It's just like the BBC "world" opinion poll of other countries. Most of the countries polled are Western. Naturally they're going to lean in favor of Western countries and against countries that aren't Western. The Little League World Series just happened. Why is it that one of the two teams in the big game is always reserved for a US team while every other country has to battle it out for the other spot? And the US team many times isn't the winner in the end.

you are totally right. world bank controlled by US, IMF controlled by Europeans, ADB controlled by japan & US. that is why they just agreed to form a BRIC bank and china will form another one called AIIB. breaking the monopoly of the world bank and IMF will be the best thing for all countries that need capital.
 
Actually, Hong Kong's financial success is solely, and I do mean solely, due to the fact that it was the only trade gateway between the West and the 1.2 billion market of Mainland China. Everything else you mentioned was built with that financial success.

Remember the Kowloon Walled City? It was literally the stuff that dystopian sci-fi is made of. Where was the British rule of law then?

I believe that in the end, HK is resenting the loss of their premier financial status. This has been an inevitable development since China's economic ascension, and HK has only been able to stay as prosperous as they are due to many preferential policies from the central government. If HK had stayed under British rule and had to compete on equal footing with cities like Shanghai and Shenzhen, it would have fared a lot worse than it does now.

I suspect most HKers realize this, which is why we're seeing the so-called "pro-democracy" movement fizzle out.

1. No that's very wrong. The rule of law, freedom of speech, freedom that we have is what mainland China doesn't have, and these nurtured very safe conditions for living and businesses to flourish, not to mention paving a way to many other things. And fyi, ICAC was established back in the days of the crown. Also, are you saying financial successes can buy HKU its place as one of the top 50 spots in terms of world ranking for universities? And financial success buy HKers their health care systems which is world-class? You need good system, good ethics, education, etc, for these types of things to occur. The US has the biggest GDP in the world, but its health care system is still very unforgiving and flawed. Also, I don't think financial success can build a good rule of law. It takes conscious effort, like what Zhu, Hu, and Xi have been doing. The way you're saying all these makes me wonder if you too have been to HK or actually understand the culture, its history.

2. Does the Kowloon Wall City still exist? No. It's gone before the handover. So why are you picking something that's no longer valid, to serve your argument? Also, just because a city has its own ghettos doesn't mean it says anything directly about the rule of law. It only implies there are societal issues and there are groups who are underprivileged, troubled, need help/to be addressed, and not covered by the social safety net. To further my point, Vancouver's DTSE is where prostitution, drug addicts run rampant. However, like HK, Canada still boasts as one of the least corrupted states, therefore this shows your comparison as again, invalid.

3. Again I think you're also very wrong. Did you read the paragraph I had written up there as well as the FP's article? Both had explained clearly what we are going through. I honestly think a lot of you probably never been exposed to HK too much, so you guys don't really understand the people and culture there and even underestimate us. (quite similar to how you guys accuse the West of undermining China). People in HK since '98 long knew this is the inevitable. Do you honestly believe as one of the top 4 IFC we won't have this foresight, or see what's going on, or the trend is going? We had experienced the Asian Financial Crisis and would certainly know very well what's in store for us. Also, many people do still think back of the British rule because at least we prosper as a society and our values, identities, are intact. What HK is experiencing now is the exact opposite.
 
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