Chinese Engines Miss The Finish Line

Status
Not open for further replies.
Engineer

Engineer

Major
MiG-29 said:
and you think is just removing the low pressure turbine cloning the engine and that`s it...
Click to expand...
No. He is telling you a fact, which is that WS-10 is based on technologies from CFM56. And no, it isn't simple, which is why WS-10's development took 20 years. This is common knowledge, and it is the reason that when foreign media circle-jerk WS-10 is an Al-31 copy, we laugh at them for not knowing sh*t.

MiG-29 said:
F-101 is a bomber engine, which means is not a fighter engine, the F-110 is a fighter engine true, but it is far harder to turn the basic CFM56 into a high performance fighter engine like Al-31.
Click to expand...
F-110 is developed from F-101's core. CFM56 is developed from F-101's core. WS-10 is reverse engineered from CFM56's core, which is the F-101's core. No one here claimed that WS-10 is CFM56, only that WS-10 has heritage with CFM56.

MiG-29 said:
What you are saying is China cloned the basic compressor/combustor of CFM56 and later turned into the WS-10, this is not even believeable, to do it you requiered to know the basic F-101 technologies and have the needed tooling to make it, which China lacked, the only engine available was Al-31, in fact the WS-10 is still uncapable to fill the role of Al-31 that new batches of Al-31 were bought.
Click to expand...
Whether you believe or not isn't going to alter the truth.

MiG-29 said:
For the Chinese copying the Al-31 was something logic, first they have the engine since 1992, the WS-10 engine needs to substitute the Al-31 in jets that use it , for that reason china is looking for US tech, why they were shopping for an F-16 engine as popular mechanics quote? the reason is they lack information and technology to match even the basic Al-31.
Click to expand...
China got CFM56 before Al-31. Design work of the WS-10 also precede the acquisition of Al-31. Thus, WS-10 being a copy of Al-31 is actually illogical.
 
Quickie

Quickie

Colonel
The fact is they did extend the lifespan of the AL-31 according to this article. Now if they can extend the lifespan of the AL-31, there's no reason the newer design WS-10A will not at least match that lifespan. In fact more likely the WS-10A will exceed it. The problem they were, at one time, having was production issues which has nothing to do with the design of the engine. One of the reasons, imo, they made the decision of not retrofitting the J-10 / older flankers is that it's cheaper and less hassle to continue using the AL-31F engines. The WS-10A still needs to be modified to a version with a different gearbox position for the J-10, not to mention the aft fuselage of the J-10 / older flankers (including for example the engine's holding brackets) would need to be modified to fit the newer engine.

China makes modifications to Russian Salyut AL-31F jet engine
ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010


Jane's Defence Weekly


China makes modifications to Russian Salyut AL-31F jet engine

Reuben F Johnson JDW Correspondent - Kiev

Key Points
The PLAAF has developed its own upgrade for the Russian-made Salyut AL-31F jet engine

The development demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in supporting their fighters' Russian-made engines


The Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has developed its own service life extension modifications for the Russian-made Salyut AL-31F engine, a Moscow-based defence and foreign policy think-tank has reported.

The modifications to the AL-31F/FN P.2 series engine increase its operational limits by more than 65 per cent - from 900 to 1,500 flight hours, according to the privately owned Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST).

The AL-31F engine is the powerplant for several types of aircraft in the PLAAF inventory: the Sukhoi Su-27 (which is also licence-produced at the Shenyang Aircraft Works as the J-11), the Su-30MKK and the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation J-10. The AL-31FN is a special derivative of the original AL-31F design that was developed by the Salyut plant in Moscow for a single-engine application to be fitted to the J-10.

The service life modifications were reportedly developed at the PLAAF Overhaul Plant Number 5719. The key to the service life extension is a specific set of improved, Chinese-made components that are part of what is described as a "re-manufacturing kit" that is introduced during the process of a full-scale remanufacturing and overhaul process.

The plant is located near the city of Chengdu in Sichuan province, employs 2,000 personnel and is reported to be a model of innovation within the PLAAF's network of repair plants. During the past several years the facility has initiated 63 different research and development programmes and has been awarded more than 20 state prizes for achievements in technological innovation. In the same time period, the plant's assets have more than doubled from CNY1.1 billion (USD147.2 million) in 2004 to CNY2.9 billion today.

The plant's officials credit the success of their overhaul process to a decision taken in 2004, when some of the first AL-31F engines were presented to the plant by the PLAAF for overhaul. A decision was taken, according to the Chinese news sources originally cited, to completely reorganise the overhaul process. This streamlining of the overhaul disassembly and servicing line resulted in a 27.3 per cent decrease in the time required to complete an overhaul and increased the plant's production capacity by 60 per cent.

This level of improvement in the engine's design demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in the support of these Russian-made engines. Russian specialists who spoke to Jane's state that this is "another example of how the technology sold to the Chinese during the 1990s has now been fully assimilated by them. It is only a matter of time before the engines that China produces will be as good as or better than anything designed here in Russia".
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Engineer said:
No. He is telling you a fact, which is that WS-10 is based on technologies from CFM56. And no, it isn't simple, which is why WS-10's development took 20 years. This is common knowledge, and it is the reason that when foreign media circle-jerk WS-10 is an Al-31 copy, we laugh at them for not knowing sh*t.


F-110 is developed from F-101's core. CFM56 is developed from F-101's core. WS-10 is reverse engineered from CFM56's core, which is the F-101's core. No one here claimed that WS-10 is CFM56, only that WS-10 has heritage with CFM56.


Whether you believe or not isn't going to alter the truth.


China got CFM56 before Al-31. Design work of the WS-10 also precede the acquisition of Al-31. Thus, WS-10 being a copy of Al-31 is actually illogical.
Click to expand...

That is not true, changing the compressor combustor part of a CFM56 into a lower by pass afterburner is not easy in fact copy the compressor combustor without any technical documentation and tooling is highly difficult.

To start they needed to fill the blanks in metalurgy, second without a jet engine model for a fighter, turning a combustor compressor of an airliner is too dificult, in 10 years is alost impossible unless you copy the basic AL-31 and china send guys like Moo to collect information on foreign fighter engines.



In fact copying the Al-31 is the logical step, they had the engine, they had some basic technical knowledge,and it is the engine they need to replace, so studing it is the fist step, in fact they can even use parts for the WS-10 taken dirtectly from the Al-31

there is no reason the chinese won`t study and copy the Al-31 engines.
 
Deino

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
But they got the AL-31 simply AFTER the CFM-56 and WS-10 development started ... !
 
Engineer

Engineer

Major
MiG-29 said:
That is not true, changing the compressor combustor part of a CFM56 into a lower by pass afterburner is not easy in fact copy the compressor combustor without any technical documentation and tooling is highly difficult.
Click to expand...
You are not making any sense. First, the core of the engine refers to the high pressure compressor, combustor, and high pressure turbine. The "compressor combustor part" as you call it has nothing to do with "lower by pass afterburner", and there is no such thing as low bypass afterburner. Secondly, China did not modify a CFM56 into a low bypass engine, so your assumption that this took place is fundamentally wrong. What China did is reverse engineered the core of CFM56 and design the WS-10 around that. It is a highly difficult process, which is why it took China some 20 years from start to having a flyable prototype.

MiG-29 said:
To start they needed to fill the blanks in metalurgy,
Click to expand...
Which China did as China can produce single crystal blades.

MiG-29 said:
second without a jet engine model for a fighter, turning a combustor compressor of an airliner is too dificult, in 10 years is alost impossible unless you copy the basic AL-31 and china send guys like Moo to collect information on foreign fighter engines.
Click to expand...
There are two things that are wrong here. First, the core of CFM56 is a partial model of a low-bypass military jet engine. This is the primary reason why the designers of WS-10 decided to reverse engineer the core of CFM56. Secondly, China took 20 years, not 10 years, from having nothing to a flyable prototype.

MiG-29 said:
In fact copying the Al-31 is the logical step, they had the engine, they had some basic technical knowledge,and it is the engine they need to replace, so studing it is the fist step, in fact they can even use parts for the WS-10 taken dirtectly from the Al-31
Click to expand...
Except it isn't a logical step, because it simply isn't true. WS-10 has heritage from CFM56, not Al-31.

MiG-29 said:
there is no reason the chinese won`t study and copy the Al-31 engines.
Click to expand...
Which has nothing to do with the fact that WS-10 is related to CFM56.
 
Last edited:
MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Quickie said:
The fact is they did extend the lifespan of the AL-31 according to this article. Now if they can extend the lifespan of the AL-31, there's no reason the newer design WS-10A will not at least match that lifespan. In fact more likely the WS-10A will exceed it. The problem they were, at one time, having was production issues which has nothing to do with the design of the engine. One of the reasons, imo, they made the decision of not retrofitting the J-10 / older flankers is that it's cheaper and less hassle to continue using the AL-31F engines. The WS-10A still needs to be modified to a version with a different gearbox position for the J-10, not to mention the aft fuselage of the J-10 / older flankers (including for example the engine's holding brackets) would need to be modified to fit the newer engine.
Click to expand...

PAK FA uses two types of engine a new type 15 or 25% more powerful than the 117S named type 30 and has been tested already on T-50
В трудные для российского авиапрома годы, авиастроительные фирмы, производившие военные самолеты выжили за счет экспорта, прежде всего в Китай и Индию. Сегодня китайцы скопировали наш "Су-27" и сами готовы продавать его на мировом рынке по демпинговым ценам. Не потеряем ли мы в результате наши традиционные рынки боевых самолетов?

— Не потеряем, потому что такого самолета как у нас, у китайцев нет и в ближайшее время не будет! Они говорят, что сделали самолет 5-го поколения, но говорить можно что угодно… Их лучший двигатель скопирован с нашего "АЛ-31Ф". У нас же действительно двигатель 5-го поколения, и он по всем своим параметрам, по тяге, по удельному расходу топлива соответствует 5-му поколению. Я приоткрою тайну и скажу, что у нас фактически уже есть два двигателя 5-го поколения. Второй, который сейчас условно называется "тип 30", уже испытывался в полете на истребителе "Т-50". В дальнейшем ему, наверное, дадут имя "АЛ-…". По своим параметрам он на 15-25 процентов превосходит "117-й

During the difficult years for the Russian aircraft industry, aircraft building company that produced military aircraft survived by exports, especially in China and India. . Today, the Chinese have copied our Su-27 "and are ready to sell it on world markets at dumping prices. Not whether we lose as a result of our traditional markets of combat aircraft?

Do not lose, because such an aircraft as we do, the Chinese have no time soon will be! They say that the plane made ​​the 5-th generation, but you can say anything ... They are the best engine copied from our "AL-31F. We also do engine 5-th generation, and it is in all of its parameters on traction, in specific fuel consumption corresponds to the 5-th generation. I opened the secret and say that we actually already have two motors 5-th generation. The second, which is now conventionally called the "Type 30", has already been tested in flight on the fighter T-50 ". In the future it probably will give the name of "ALAccording to its parameters it a 15-25 percent greater than "117 th

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

interview to Vicktor Chepkin Russian engine designer
First Deputy General Director of JSC "NPO Saturn" R & D & D - General Designer Victor CHEPKIN.


 
Last edited:
MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Engineer said:
Which contradicts with the fact that WS-10 is related to CFM56, thus he does not have accurate information.
Click to expand...

скопирован с нашего "АЛ-31Ф". why he say that?

why not copy the Al-31? do china has technical knowledge of F-110? does Pakistan have F-110 engines or F-101?

Moo was caught in the US why?
 
Engineer

Engineer

Major
MiG-29 said:
скопирован с нашего "АЛ-31Ф". why he say that?

why not copy the Al-31? do china has technical knowledge of F-110? does Pakistan have F-110 engines or F-101?

Moo was caught in the US why?
Click to expand...

Because they are already copying the core of CFM56. Studying the Al-31 is not copying. Studying the Al-31 and reverse engineer the core of CFM56 at the same time are not mutally exclusive.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top