Chinese Engine Development

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Racek49

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Well, I didn't even mention the year of introduction. I was just answering the objection that the Russification of the Su SSJ 100 and MS 21 or TU 204 took 5 years and that it was too much. Who can do it? We'll see with Chinese projects. New engines for these aircraft are in certification tests. In addition, they can use the existing ones. It is certainly worth noting that the Al 51 engines for the SU 57, etc. are already in serial production with good parameters. Of course, with thrust vectoring. Otherwise, a new line of new and heavily modernized engines for civil aircraft and helicopters is being created. There are already quite a few in production. We can name them. And for the most part, these are original Russian developments. Russia's problem is, of course, capacities. It is a very wide scope and the country has only a tenth of the population of China, but very long experience on which to build. Well, we probably don't need to discuss the deadlines... that is everyone's problem. Unfortunately, the deadlines are usually not set by designers, right? As if we didn't know :) And the war is also worth a little, isn't it.
Well, the discussion about this probably belongs in another thread, isn't it. However, I follow it a little and it's good to get involved sometimes. I have time now, I'm an old man. I've been dealing with the Russians for quite a few years and I know them a little. I have no illusions about them, the occupation in 1968 and my experience with their dealings from a position of strength got me out of that.
China has its foot in this area and the results will surely come soon. I trust it, as a long-time supporter of China. About 70 years. They make me happy, boys and girls. They'll soon be at the top here too.
 
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Racek49

New Member
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Racek49 said:
Well, I didn't even mention the year of introduction. I was just answering the objection that the Russification of the Su SSJ 100 and MS 21 or TU 204 took 5 years and that it was too much. Who can do it? We'll see with Chinese projects. New engines for these aircraft are in certification tests. In addition, they can use the existing ones. It is certainly worth noting that the Al 51 engines for the SU 57, etc. are already in serial production with good parameters. Of course, with thrust vectoring. Otherwise, a new line of new and heavily modernized engines for civil aircraft and helicopters is being created. There are already quite a few in production. We can name them. And for the most part, these are original Russian developments. Russia's problem is, of course, capacities. It is a very wide scope and the country has only a tenth of the population of China, but very long experience on which to build. Well, we probably don't need to discuss the deadlines... that is everyone's problem. Unfortunately, the deadlines are usually not set by designers, right? As if we didn't know :) And the war is also worth a little, isn't it.
Well, the discussion about this probably belongs in another thread, isn't it. However, I follow it a little and it's good to get involved sometimes. I have time now, I'm an old man. I've been dealing with the Russians for quite a few years and I know them a little. I have no illusions about them, the occupation in 1968 and my experience with their dealings from a position of strength got me out of that.
China has its foot in this area and the results will surely come soon. I trust it, as a long-time supporter of China. About 70 years. They make me happy, boys and girls. They'll soon be at the top here too.
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A good website about Russian aviation is
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where you can find a fairly objective view. The boys are critical of each other, aren't they?
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
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Deino said:
Is this a joke?! When was the last time the certification of a new high-end engine took place in Russia
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Is the PD-14 high end enough for you?

The project started in 2009 and it got certified in 2018. It took longer than expected because they only caught some issues late in the flight test stage and funding was throttled because of delays in the MC-21 aircraft itself.

Deino said:
and when did this last take place in the announced time?
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The Russians are currently finishing certification of the PD-8. If it goes as expected it will be designed in 5 years.

1 year to design the engine, 1 year to build a prototype, 1 year to ground test it, 1 year to flight test it, and 1 year for certification.

This is typical. 5 years if everything goes well and double the time if development is troubled.

Deino said:
Don't get me wrong, but if serious, then look at every modern designed civilian engine and even more, what about the AL-51 announced for years? Nothing...
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The PD-14 is in limited serial production, and the PD-8 is in risk production.

As for the AL-51 from I understand the engine core is finished, if you see any additional delays it will be because Sukhoi insisted on the stealth square nozzle at the last minute. When they already had a working stealth circular nozzle.

Deino said:
So to Claim, China is still behind and in „Russia it typically takes a year or less“ is purely a joke.
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China is not significantly behind, but they still are a bit. The PD-14 has the certification of the engine while CJ-1000 does not.
And yes it does take only a year if there aren't any other issues. Most problems in engine design are usually.caught in the ground and flight test stage not the final certification. If they are pushing CJ-1000 with final certification it is because it already has passed the tests.
 
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tphuang

tphuang

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China's material science right now is so far ahead of Russia and same with precision cutting and 3D printing. All things you need to produce a competent engine. To say that Russia is ahead of China is an interesting comment to say the least.

The issue with China right now is that it has all the part needed to be competitive with big 3 engine maker in performance, but full product development for engines take so much longer than in other industries. Same with aircraft development itself. And when it comes to taking delivery, the airlines themselves also still need to trust a new supplier that they haven't worked with. Even for a domestic airline, that's a huge risk.
 
sunnymaxi

sunnymaxi

Colonel
Registered Member
tphuang said:
The issue with China right now is that it has all the part needed to be competitive with big 3 engine maker in performance, but full product development for engines take so much longer than in other industries. Same with aircraft development itself. And when it comes to taking delivery, the airlines themselves also still need to trust a new supplier that they haven't worked with. Even for a domestic airline, that's a huge risk.
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correct sir.. but when you don't have any choice ?? i think we are heading towards this situation. USA forcing China to switch on domestic suppliers. AECC accelerated CJ-1000A certification process and already rolled our first production unit.
 
H

HighGround

Senior Member
Registered Member
tphuang said:
China's material science right now is so far ahead of Russia and same with precision cutting and 3D printing. All things you need to produce a competent engine. To say that Russia is ahead of China is an interesting comment to say the least.
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He was talking about the engine certification. PD-14 vs CJ-1000

tphuang said:
The issue with China right now is that it has all the part needed to be competitive with big 3 engine maker in performance, but full product development for engines take so much longer than in other industries. Same with aircraft development itself. And when it comes to taking delivery, the airlines themselves also still need to trust a new supplier that they haven't worked with. Even for a domestic airline, that's a huge risk.
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It doesn't feel like it's been too long. Considering this is a commercial product, CJ-1000 progress actually feels quite fast.
 
tphuang

tphuang

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gelgoog said:
Russia also has its own precision cutting and 3D printing tools in use by the United Engine Corporation.
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They also make their own friction stir welding tools.
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CNC+Export_Russia-2023.jpeg

This is number up to 2023 and just CNC.
For 2024, 9.1% of China's machine tool (more than just CNC) export was to Russia. Only Vietnam imported more from China.

sunnymaxi said:
correct sir.. but when you don't have any choice ?? i think we are heading towards this situation. USA forcing China to switch on domestic suppliers. AECC accelerated CJ-1000A certification process and already rolled our first production unit.
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well, airlines don't think that way. The first C919s using CJ-1000A will probably need to get some kind of special deal from the government or be special government users.

HighGround said:
He was talking about the engine certification. PD-14 vs CJ-1000



It doesn't feel like it's been too long. Considering this is a commercial product, CJ-1000 progress actually feels quite fast.
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well, we don't know how long CJ-1000A will take since it has yet to go into service anywhere and show real world number. Again, with any commercial projects, there is more to it than just pure technical performance.
 
G

gelgoog

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tphuang said:
This is number up to 2023 and just CNC.
For 2024, 9.1% of China's machine tool (more than just CNC) export was to Russia. Only Vietnam imported more from China.
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Production of machine tools in Russia is still limited and most of it ends up in the MIC.

So yes Russia is importing a lot of Chinese machine tools but don't assume those are going to the aviation engine making sector.

A lot of these tools are not easily exported anyway, most countries have blacklists for their export. Russia has been under Western sanctions for the MIC since 2014. So they started making their own tools.

tphuang said:
well, airlines don't think that way. The first C919s using CJ-1000A will probably need to get some kind of special deal from the government or be special government users.
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Few airlines in China are not owned by the government in the first place. Maybe the ones in Hong Kong and that is about it.
If the Chinese government orders them to buy the C919 with the CJ-1000 they will.

tphuang said:
well, we don't know how long CJ-1000A will take since it has yet to go into service anywhere and show real world number. Again, with any commercial projects, there is more to it than just pure technical performance.
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Even when CJ-1000 is certified for production they will have to put it in the C919 and certify it there. This will easily take other year. So I would say 2 years until it can be in production C919s.

Russia is doing these things simultaneously. Once the PD-8 passed flight tests they immediately put it on the SJ-100. It is supposed to be certified for production only late this year but they are already flying with it in test aircraft.

I would say China is being too leisurely with this considering what the US has done. They should have already started development of the Sinofied C919.
 
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sunnymaxi

sunnymaxi

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gelgoog said:
I would say China is being too leisurely with this considering what the US has done. They should have already started development of the Sinofied C919.
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the localization process has been going on for years. even Guancha Trios explicitly mentioned it, due complex geopolitical situation and Tech war.

if everything goes well, CJ-1000A could enter in LRIP in 2027.
 
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