Chinese Engine Development

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I believe your stance is:
- a VCE is a design change enough to get leaked
- therefore WS-15 is very likely not to be a VCE.

No.

My position is:
- if WS-15 were modified to be a VCE, we would probably know about it by now
- it is technologically unlikely for such a major change in its design to be carried out this late into its development process while aiming for service in the near term future (we've heard about aiming for production in mid 2020s for a while now, for example)
- it is uncharacteristic for the PLA to significantly pursue more advanced/technologically sophisticated redesigns for products relatively late into a product's development especially if it is intended for production or service in the near future, and if we are to entertain such an idea it requires significant grapevine backing (such as the decision for EM catapult versus steam catapult for 003, in the mid 2010s)


However, IMHO, it could be because:
- WS-15 was redesigned as a VCE
- so PLA put it even more under wraps
- and the particular two-stream VCE design isn't as far departed from a traditional low BPR turbofan compared to an ACE
- easier to contain the information
- therefore close to nothing is known about the WS-15.

I would agree with you if the WS-15 were said to be converted to an ACE, but this particular two-stream VCE design is just a traditional low BPR turbofan with a CDFS and more variable stator geometries. It's much easier to achieve compared to a full-fledged ACE.

The reason I would consider this is because a two-stream VCE that's able to adjust bypass:core airflow is how you can have a 10+ engine T/W while also having supercruising as one of the main design focus. A traditional low BPR turbofan like the F119, due to the choice of having supercruising as the main focus, barely has a T/W around 10 and even lower if we include the nozzle. The WS-15 IIRC, somehow, achieves both according to vague rumors.


See above.
 

Alfa_Particle

Junior Member
Registered Member
No.

My position is:
- if WS-15 were modified to be a VCE, we would probably know about it by now
- it is technologically unlikely for such a major change in its design to be carried out this late into its development process while aiming for service in the near term future (we've heard about aiming for production in mid 2020s for a while now, for example)
- it is uncharacteristic for the PLA to significantly pursue more advanced/technologically sophisticated redesigns for products relatively late into a product's development especially if it is intended for production or service in the near future, and if we are to entertain such an idea it requires significant grapevine backing (such as the decision for EM catapult versus steam catapult for 003, in the mid 2010s)
I feel like changing the launch system of a country's first indigenous CATOBAR carrier would be harder to conceal than adding a CDFS and VSGs to an engine design, but who knows.

I mean, WS-15 did get a redesign though. And for it to reach a T/W of 11, max AB thrust of 181 kN, whilst being a supercruise engine, I think this counts as a major redesign. To what exactly? We are yet to find out.

I'm just putting forth a possibility it could be a VCE, NOT an ACE, regarding what the WS-15 was redesigned into. Therefore, is it really 'relatively late' into development if it has been revamped?

If we assume the rumors about WS-15 being in production next year are true, then from 2018, WS-15 took seven years to reach from revamp to actual production.

Take YF120. It also took around 7 years from development to testing in F120 configuration. I don't see how it's unreasonable for the PLA, especially since they aren't starting from scratch about a relatively new concept like GE was during the 1980s. And, allow me to repeat it again, a two-stream VCE, in principle, isn't actually that complicated.

But, this is just extrapolation. It could very well be wrong. But I'll forever remain baffled as to how they could really make a high T/W, fast supercruising engine without being a VCE.

I think you meant this one
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Abstract

A new testing research on an existing engine provides an efficient way to explore critical engine technology.A new method is proposed to develop VCE (variable cycle engine) from a conventional gas turbine (turbofan) engine.This paper also presents a configuration promotion project with introduction of selector valve,and puts forward VABI (variable area bypass injector) and rear VABI.The first stage of high pressure compressor is changed to a CDFS (core-driven fan stage).The working principle of the VCE is stated.Based on the components′ performance level of conventional turbofan engine,a primary overall performance project is carried out and a numerical simulation on VCE is conducted.The calculation results show that the thrust can be increased by 5% to 8% in supersonic cruise using single bypass mode.Although specific fuel consumption (SFC) cannot be decreased obviously in subsonic cruise using double bypass mode,the engine inlet air flux can be increased by 5%,so the spillover is reduced and installed performance of the engine can be improved.

I got the feeling that the conventional gas turbine in this paper is WS-10 when I read it in detail.
Sounds like it. I couldn't download the PDF though.

See, people did theorize that it's the WS-10, but their reasoning are that the WS-10 have a 9-stage HP compressor while the engine in the paper had a 8-stage HPC.

But do the WS-10 series actually have 9-stage HPCs?
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I feel like changing the launch system of a country's first indigenous CATOBAR carrier would be harder to conceal than adding a CDFS and VSGs to an engine design, but who knows.

I feel like it isn't, considering how vital both subsystems are to their respective overall platforms.



I mean, WS-15 did get a redesign though. And for it to reach a T/W of 11, max AB thrust of 181 kN, whilst being a supercruise engine, I think this counts as a major redesign. To what exactly? We are yet to find out.

The vast array of possible answers means that "we don't know" is a better answer than "they may have redesigned it as a VCE".


I'm just putting forth a possibility it could be a VCE, NOT an ACE, regarding what the WS-15 was redesigned into. Therefore, is it really 'relatively late' into development if it has been revamped?

Yes.


If we assume the rumors about WS-15 being in production next year are true, then from 2018, WS-15 took seven years to reach from revamp to actual production.

Take YF120. It also took around 7 years from development to testing in F120 configuration. I don't see how it's unreasonable for the PLA, especially since they aren't starting from scratch about a relatively new concept like GE was during the 1980s. And, allow me to repeat it again, a two-stream VCE, in principle, isn't actually that complicated.

But, this is just extrapolation. It could very well be wrong. But I'll forever remain baffled as to how they could really make a high T/W, fast supercruising engine without being a VCE.

It's unreasonable because this is AECC and the PLA we are talking about, of the late 2010s and early 2020s era.

One day by the 2040s onwards it may be that we can see AECC develop and produce new engines or concepts and integrate them redesigned engines intended for production in a relatively short time period, but until they demonstrate and prove it across multiple successive projects, they do not deserve this benefit of doubt from us.


We don't get to say "technically we cannot exclude the possibility that WS-15 was redesigned as a VCE" just based on circumstantial indicators. For subsystems of this magnitude and significance (things like aero-engines, or carrier catapults or carrier propulsion), the onus is on credible indicators to suggest the claim is legitimate, otherwise we venture into the dangerous zone of entertaining the idea that the industry is more capable than it actually is, without first seeing past proof that they are actually that capable or without any credible indicators.

That's why this idea is best put in the "cool notion, still should not be entertained for now" box. We don't want to get high on our own supply.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
A two-stream VCE is technically 80s technology, and relatively easier to achieve than three-stream ACEs like the XA100. It's arguably not too groundbreaking since according to the research paper, all they're doing to achieve BPR variations are by changing VIGV AoA and incorporating a CDFS. Really, in principle, all you're doing is using VIGV/stators to block the core bypass channel and directing the airflow back to the core.
How advanced a VCE technology is is not dependent on how many streams you add into an engine anymore than how advanced your CPU is is determined by whether you have 2 vs 3 specialized cores. There are lots of ways to do variable bypass, with some approaches involve different mechanical tradeoffs over others.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Academic paper studying the STOVL engine layout system, with similar configuration to that of the F-35B's F135-PW-600 engine. Posted by @鎏鎏岁月 on Weibo.

008sQmLAgy1hqqc63n9qxj30yd179ak5.jpg
008sQmLAgy1hqqc6402tbj30cy0a23z9.jpg
008sQmLAgy1hqqc64bzqgj30ct06gt93.jpg

Unclear if this particular photo is related to the aforementioned academic paper, hence just positing here for the record:
008sQmLAgy1hqqc64p9rvj30og0hcq7p.jpg

A PS-ed photo of what the STOVL fighter shown in the academic paper could look like (if the design ever made through conceptual studies), edited from the original photo of an F-35(B) in flight. Posted by @RICKY Un on Facebook.

448500022_1006671480901691_2023241952704227211_n.jpg
 
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by78

General
Academic paper studying the STOVL engine layout system, with similar configuration to that of the F-35B's F135-PW-600 engine. Posted by @鎏鎏岁月 on Weibo.

View attachment 131135
View attachment 131136
View attachment 131137

The paper literally says it's a model from NASA Ames Research Center. The illustration appears to show a STOVL concept from either MD or Lockheed (they're very similar), the latter of which NASA wind tunnel tested many years ago.

53793623244_f93d29e01c_o.jpg

53792282282_72fb0f5389_b.jpg



Unclear if this particular photo is related to the aforementioned academic paper, hence just positing here for the record:
View attachment 131139

The OP said it's not related to the paper, and I doubt it's Chinese.

A PS-ed photo of what the STOVL fighter shown in the academic paper could look like (if the design ever made through conceptual studies), edited from the original photo of an F-35(B) in flight. Posted by @RICKY Un on Facebook.

View attachment 131140

I'm not sure why you would use a random, unrelated PSed image
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to demonstrate the concept when the OP himself has never shared the PSed image in the first place. Here's a much better look at that concept:

53793531463_f83d58e9b4_h.jpg


P.S. It looks to me that the OP is rather fond of posting tidbits of often unrelated research papers to weave together narratives he wants to push.
 
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test1979

Junior Member
Registered Member
AES-100, a rare Chinese turboshaft engine with a clear TBO indicator
TBO》=3000 hours

It must be said that compared with the latest PT-6's 4000 hours and Arrano's 5000 hours,
the gap is still quite large. We need to continue to work hard.
aes100.png
 

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sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
AES-100, a rare Chinese turboshaft engine with a clear TBO indicator
TBO》=3000 hours

It must be said that compared with the latest PT-6's 4000 hours and Arrano's 5000 hours,
the gap is still quite large. We need to continue to work hard.
View attachment 131738
AES-100 is quite a new machine.. development process just completed and machine get the first clearance certificate for production ..

3000 hours TBO for this fresh engine is quite significant and it shows the progress of China's Aero engine industry..

you know, how many units of PT-6 engine produced so far ?? 50,000+ units.. these are highly reliable machines hence superior efficiency and better TBO..

gas turbine cannot be better unless you put it into mass production.. so AES-100 will get better and better as time progress..
 
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