Chinese Engine Development

ddd...

New Member
Registered Member
Huang Weina’s presentation is really eye-opening, especially her discussion on the digitalization of the whole engine design and development process.

She mentioned that “digital engineering” has already been adopted by the US air force as part of the “third offset strategy”, which aims to significantly shorten development cycles and costs to out-innovate peer competitors. She cited the T7A and F35 projects as examples wherein “digital engineering” reduced assembling time by 80%, software development time by 50%, upgrading costs by 81%, maintenance costs by 49%, wind tunnel test time by 20 months, while improving engineering quality by 75%.

She also mentioned that digital (Aerodynamic) models, digitalized project management and the application of AI now enable American developers to chose from thousands rather than dozens of candidate designs, compare lifecycle cost-benefits with high accuracy and reliability, and leverage AI inference based on vast historical data to expedite and optimize designs. Such revolution would provide the US a huge advantage against anyone still following traditional design and development techniques and project management modalities.

It is clear to her that America already has the first-mover advantage in this “digital engineering” revolution and China has to catch up or risk seeing the “US lead being enlarged rather than reduced”. She mentioned that the digital revolution had been experimented in the ongoing WS19 project, bringing the project ahead of schedule and achieving a 25% reduction in test and development (“试制” in her words) cycle. However, China’s progress in this direction is still experimental and partial and a systematic digital transition would require the participation of not only design bureaus and factories, but also civilian partners and suppliers.

A most interesting anecdote she mentioned was that she consulted Huawei experts on digitalization and data analysis, and she emphasized at the end of her presentation that digital revolution in the aerospace industry hinges upon China’s overall progress in digitalization.

An immediate thought that hit me hearing her words is that there is probably a serious risk for America’s offset strategy to succeed in the aerospace sector. China does have a significant disadvantages in digital and electronic technologies at the moment and America clearly bends over containing China tech-wise. If the future of aerospace industries really depends on digital competitiveness, and the hopeless gaps between ChatGPT and Baidu, Alpha-Go and China’s own Go AI, or TSMC and SMIC continue to show no convincing signs of being narrowed, it would be very likely that America would maintain a formidable military tech lead in the foreseeable future (say 3-5 decades) than otherwise.
Huang Weina, the chief engineer of ws-19, gave the data of WS19, the thrust of the engineering prototype is 10 tons, and the thrust-to-weight ratio is 10. At the same time, the thrust of ws-13 is similar to that of RD33.
And confirmed the existence of the legendary 9-ton thrust WS-21.

View attachment 106778
 

by78

General
WS-19 is all but confirmed to have a 3D-thrust-vectoring variant. In fact, this was unveiled four years ago in the form of a promotional video, but we didn't know at the time that the engine depicted was the WS-19.


52675146929_501e248b59_h.jpg
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Huang Weina’s presentation is really eye-opening, especially her discussion on the digitalization of the whole engine design and development process.

She mentioned that “digital engineering” has already been adopted by the US air force as part of the “third offset strategy”, which aims to significantly shorten development cycles and costs to out-innovate peer competitors. She cited the T7A and F35 projects as examples wherein “digital engineering” reduced assembling time by 80%, software development time by 50%, upgrading costs by 81%, maintenance costs by 49%, wind tunnel test time by 20 months, while improving engineering quality by 75%.

She also mentioned that digital (Aerodynamic) models, digitalized project management and the application of AI now enable American developers to chose from thousands rather than dozens of candidate designs, compare lifecycle cost-benefits with high accuracy and reliability, and leverage AI inference based on vast historical data to expedite and optimize designs. Such revolution would provide the US a huge advantage against anyone still following traditional design and development techniques and project management modalities.

It is clear to her that America already has the first-mover advantage in this “digital engineering” revolution and China has to catch up or risk seeing the “US lead being enlarged rather than reduced”. She mentioned that the digital revolution had been experimented in the ongoing WS19 project, bringing the project ahead of schedule and achieving a 25% reduction in test and development (“试制” in her words) cycle. However, China’s progress in this direction is still experimental and partial and a systematic digital transition would require the participation of not only design bureaus and factories, but also civilian partners and suppliers.

A most interesting anecdote she mentioned was that she consulted Huawei experts on digitalization and data analysis, and she emphasized at the end of her presentation that digital revolution in the aerospace industry hinges upon China’s overall progress in digitalization.

An immediate thought that hit me hearing her words is that there is probably a serious risk for America’s offset strategy to succeed in the aerospace sector. China does have a significant disadvantages in digital and electronic technologies at the moment and America clearly bends over containing China tech-wise. If the future of aerospace industries really depends on digital competitiveness, and the hopeless gaps between ChatGPT and Baidu, Alpha-Go and China’s own Go AI, or TSMC and SMIC continue to show no convincing signs of being narrowed, it would be very likely that America would maintain a formidable military tech lead in the foreseeable future (say 3-5 decades) than otherwise.
Number 1 - If there is ever a chance for anyone to plant the bright red-colour revolutionary flags on top of the White House and the Congress, I would encourage everyone to aim for it.

Number 2 - That doesn't sound optimistic at all, to-be-honest. What is the prospect for China to conquer this and beat the US? Or would this be an impossible task after all? The US literally holds every conceivable advantage and overmatch in the aforementioned sectors and fields of technicalities and expertise...
 
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alfreddango

Junior Member
Registered Member
Huang Weina’s presentation is really eye-opening, especially her discussion on the digitalization of the whole engine design and development process.
tangentially related, but I wonder if chinese companies managed to come up with an indigenous version of the various kinds of aviation design software (aerodynamics software, structural design software, system design software, and assembly software)

iirc the majority, if not all, of these products come from western countries. a report was posted on the forum some time ago that highlighted this vulnerability, identified by chinese scientists themselves (Designing both civilian and military aircraft is impossible without them. Aviation design software is essentially a “skull-squeezing curse” if foreign companies stop providing China with the software, the PRC aviation industry will be “paralyzed - prof. Yao Weixing 姚卫星 of Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics)

the report mentioned that an indigenous structural fatigue analysis software program has already been developed, but not the rest (2018)
 

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
tangentially related, but I wonder if chinese companies managed to come up with an indigenous version of the various kinds of aviation design software (aerodynamics software, structural design software, system design software, and assembly software)

iirc the majority, if not all, of these products come from western countries. a report was posted on the forum some time ago that highlighted this vulnerability, identified by chinese scientists themselves (Designing both civilian and military aircraft is impossible without them. Aviation design software is essentially a “skull-squeezing curse” if foreign companies stop providing China with the software, the PRC aviation industry will be “paralyzed - prof. Yao Weixing 姚卫星 of Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics)

the report mentioned that an indigenous structural fatigue analysis software program has already been developed, but not the rest (2018)
this is an old news back in 2017-18.

right now COMAC using most of the indigenous software for development.

same with localization rate. back then they were on 20 percent now reached at 60 percent.

edit - some people don't know how much China have achieved in past 5 years, we cannot compare 2018 with 2023. due to sanctions from USA hardware/software localization rate rapidly increasing. China did more breakthrough in past 5 years what they have done in past 2 decades.
 
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SlothmanAllen

Junior Member
Registered Member
Number 2 - That doesn't sound optimistic at all, to-be-honest. What is the prospect for China to conquer this and beat the US? Or would this be an impossible task after all? The US literally holds every conceivable advantage and overmatch in the aforementioned sectors and fields of technicalities and expertise...
Well if you just look at commercial turbo-fan production, I am not sure how China could catch up. US companies (CFM - GE & Safran included) dominate the market and that is going to continue to for decades to come. Maybe it is possible to catch up in military applications, but I am guessing that the civil-military fusion provided to US manufacturers will be too great to overcome.
 

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
Well if you just look at commercial turbo-fan production, I am not sure how China could catch up. US companies (CFM - GE & Safran included) dominate the market and that is going to continue to for decades to come. Maybe it is possible to catch up in military applications, but I am guessing that the civil-military fusion provided to US manufacturers will be too great to overcome.
Clearly domestic use to international use for commercial turbo-fan will be a had step because politics put a lot of weight on the certification process even in the case of China catching up technologically.
 

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
Well if you just look at commercial turbo-fan production, I am not sure how China could catch up. US companies (CFM - GE & Safran included) dominate the market and that is going to continue to for decades to come. Maybe it is possible to catch up in military applications, but I am guessing that the civil-military fusion provided to US manufacturers will be too great to overcome.
nope. as i said in my above post. non-Chinese people don't know much about recent China's progress.

China don't need to match with western firms in commercial turbo-fan market. this is a political problem.

tech matter, this is where China exploding. Liu Daxiang an Academician from Chinese Academy of Engineering Specialized in Turbofan Engines. he said, China will be a Tier 1 player in aero engine industry by 2030.
 

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
She also mentioned that digital (Aerodynamic) models, digitalized project management and the application of AI now enable American developers to chose from thousands rather than dozens of candidate designs, compare lifecycle cost-benefits with high accuracy and reliability, and leverage AI inference based on vast historical data to expedite and optimize designs. Such revolution would provide the US a huge advantage against anyone still following traditional design and development techniques and project management modalities.

It is clear to her that America already has the first-mover advantage in this “digital engineering” revolution and China has to catch up or risk seeing the “US lead being enlarged rather than reduced”. She mentioned that the digital revolution had been experimented in the ongoing WS19 project, bringing the project ahead of schedule and achieving a 25% reduction in test and development (“试制” in her words) cycle. However, China’s progress in this direction is still experimental and partial and a systematic digital transition would require the participation of not only design bureaus and factories, but also civilian partners and suppliers.

A most interesting anecdote she mentioned was that she consulted Huawei experts on digitalization and data analysis, and she emphasized at the end of her presentation that digital revolution in the aerospace industry hinges upon China’s overall progress in digitalization.
half knowledge is always the most dangerous thing in the world.

in Digitalization and apply process in manufacturing and Data analysis, China is basically neck to neck with the USA

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The value of China's digital economy reached 45.5 trillion yuan (about 6.3 trillion U.S. dollars) in 2021, accounting for 39.8 percent of the country's GDP, according to a report released by the Chinese Academy of Cyberspace

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China will continue to digitalize its manufacturing sector and promote the development of the robotics sector, the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology (MIIT) said on Tuesday.

By 2025, most of the manufacturing enterprises with an annual business turnover of at least 20 million yuan ($3.14 million) will be digitalized, and backbone enterprises in key industries will be in the initial stages of applying AI, according to the smart manufacturing development plan for China's 14th Five-Year Plan period (2021-2025) released by eight departments, including the MIIT.

China released a new index to evaluate the level of digitalization of its industries .jpg
they openly spoke about it.

b6765e8bly8h05y0vbbjmj20u00mi79n.jpgChina Aviation .. 3 (Digital manufacturing).jpg
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Huang Weina’s presentation is really eye-opening, especially her discussion on the digitalization of the whole engine design and development process.

She mentioned that “digital engineering” has already been adopted by the US air force as part of the “third offset strategy”, which aims to significantly shorten development cycles and costs to out-innovate peer competitors. She cited the T7A and F35 projects as examples wherein “digital engineering” reduced assembling time by 80%, software development time by 50%, upgrading costs by 81%, maintenance costs by 49%, wind tunnel test time by 20 months, while improving engineering quality by 75%.

She also mentioned that digital (Aerodynamic) models, digitalized project management and the application of AI now enable American developers to chose from thousands rather than dozens of candidate designs, compare lifecycle cost-benefits with high accuracy and reliability, and leverage AI inference based on vast historical data to expedite and optimize designs. Such revolution would provide the US a huge advantage against anyone still following traditional design and development techniques and project management modalities.

It is clear to her that America already has the first-mover advantage in this “digital engineering” revolution and China has to catch up or risk seeing the “US lead being enlarged rather than reduced”. She mentioned that the digital revolution had been experimented in the ongoing WS19 project, bringing the project ahead of schedule and achieving a 25% reduction in test and development (“试制” in her words) cycle. However, China’s progress in this direction is still experimental and partial and a systematic digital transition would require the participation of not only design bureaus and factories, but also civilian partners and suppliers.

A most interesting anecdote she mentioned was that she consulted Huawei experts on digitalization and data analysis, and she emphasized at the end of her presentation that digital revolution in the aerospace industry hinges upon China’s overall progress in digitalization.

An immediate thought that hit me hearing her words is that there is probably a serious risk for America’s offset strategy to succeed in the aerospace sector. China does have a significant disadvantages in digital and electronic technologies at the moment and America clearly bends over containing China tech-wise. If the future of aerospace industries really depends on digital competitiveness, and the hopeless gaps between ChatGPT and Baidu, Alpha-Go and China’s own Go AI, or TSMC and SMIC continue to show no convincing signs of being narrowed, it would be very likely that America would maintain a formidable military tech lead in the foreseeable future (say 3-5 decades) than otherwise.
I think you’re confusing advanced AI capabilities with digital design integration into project development, confusing AI capabilities that have applications in one field with general utility in digital design and process integration, and also confusing algorithmic capabilities like AI with semiconductor capabilities. You can be advanced in one without being advanced in the other. No one is squeezing out the maximum of each of these three layers in the digital stack to the maximum capability where if you’re not leading in all three you’re toast.
 
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