Chinese Engine Development

sunnymaxi

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
ACuriousPLAFan said:
In case this hasn't been shared:
View attachment 102332
Got this from @ARJ21走向商业成功之路 on Weibo. Not sure where he/she got the initial photograph, though.

Rough translation:


Notice the last sentence in the quoted statement. That means the primary users of WS-20 would not be Y-20 only. Does anyone has any further information on this?

Although, it won't hurt to make some guessings.

Firstly, I ain't sure of how a large passenger aircraft powered by WS-20 would be like. Besides, aren't there CJ-1000A and CJ-2000 that would eventually power future Chinese civilian airliners?

Therefore, I don't really understand the need for WS-20 on civilian platforms, unless the sudden export ban imposed on the LEAP-1C engines for the C919 necessitate introducing WS-20 to the civilian airliner as a stopgap measure.

Next, for the new twin-engine medium-sized transport aircraft, I think it would be similar in dimension, load and role as either the Embraer C-390 (top), or the larger Kawasaki C-2 (bottom):
View attachment 102349
View attachment 102350
I believe such twin-engined transport plane can be marketted for export and become a direct competitor to the Japanese C-2 and the Brazilian C-390, and suitable for countries that are either unable to afford the larger four-engined transport planes like the American C-17 and the Chinese Y-20, or has no need for transport planes of such sizes.

WRT this, some suggested underneath the Weibo post that the Y-30 transport plane (pictured below) that was originally meant as a successor to the Y-9s could be based upon for the design of this twin-engined transport plane by swapping the original four turboprop engines with two WS-20 turbofan engines (plus necessary design modifications).
View attachment 102352

Thirdly, regarding the second-generation long-range anti-submarine patrol aircraft. I believe a similar comparison would either be the Boeing P-8 Poseidon (top) or the Kawasaki P-1 (bottom).
View attachment 102354
View attachment 102355
Such plane could be fitted as newer AWACS and ELINT platforms as well.

So what do you guys think of this?
Click to expand...

WS-20 specification chart is real. already posted many times on this thread.

maximum take off thrust - 36,000 lbs
front fan diameter - 2.1 meters
bypass ratio - 6.0

initial plans for WS-20 were different. Shenyang wanted to produce 40,000 plus thrust high bypass engine but being the first high bypass engine of the country they played safe. after the first prototype engine was offered to COMAC but they rejected as fuel consumption is the biggest parameter of civil airliner.

this statement

it can also be used as the main engines of large passenger aircraft, new twin-engine medium-sized transport aircraft, and second-generation long-range anti-submarine patrol aircraft

don't take this 'passenger aircraft' words serious. this is just a statement.

now back to your original question

this year, AVIC present civil version of Y-20 called Y-20F-100. also they showcase the civil version of WS-20 engine AEF-1300. now you have to understand what they meant.

this is Y-20F100 cargo aircraft for civilian purpose and most probably will be powered by new AEF-1300 engines.

Indigenous engines for Y-20 proceeding well: aircraft designer | News | Flight Global


WS-20 25 tons thrust variant is under development. maybe for China's next generation super heavy airlifter in the range of C-5 Galaxy and AN-124. recently strong rumors emerge, AVIC working on related technologies. lets see

Yuan-30 is the replacement of Y-9 medium transport aircraft but this project is temporarily stalled as far as i know. coz PLAAF is happy with Y-20 so they don't want to invest money in totally new project. Shaanxi Aircraft company has completed research and development for Y-30 just waiting for the signal. 5000 KW power AEP-500 turboprop engines will be powerplant of this project. Y-30 comes under A400 category.
 
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ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
sunnymaxi said:
WS-20 specification chart is real. already posted many times on this thread.

maximum take off thrust - 36,000 lbs
front fan diameter - 2.1 meters
bypass ratio - 6.0

initial plans for WS-20 were different. Shenyang wanted to produce 40,000 plus thrust high bypass engine but being the first high bypass engine of the country they played safe. after the first prototype engine was offered to COMAC but they rejected as fuel consumption is the biggest parameter of civil airliner.

this statement

it can also be used as the main engines of large passenger aircraft, new twin-engine medium-sized transport aircraft, and second-generation long-range anti-submarine patrol aircraft

don't take this 'passenger aircraft' words serious. this is just a statement.

now back to your original question

this year, AVIC present civil version of Y-20 called Y-20F-100. also they showcase the civil version of WS-20 engine AEF-1300. now you have to understand what they meant.

this is Y-20F100 cargo aircraft for civilian purpose and most probably will be powered by new AEF-1300 engines.

Indigenous engines for Y-20 proceeding well: aircraft designer | News | Flight Global


WS-20 25 tons thrust variant is under development. maybe for China's next generation super heavy airlifter in the range of C-5 Galaxy and AN-124. recently strong rumors emerge, AVIC working on related technologies. lets see

Yuan-30 is the replacement of Y-9 medium transport aircraft but this project is temporarily stalled as far as i know. coz PLAAF is happy with Y-20 so they don't want to invest money in totally new project. Shaanxi Aircraft company has completed research and development for Y-30 just waiting for the signal. 5000 KW power AEP-500 turboprop engines will be powerplant of this project. Y-30 comes under A400 category.
Click to expand...
Much thanks for the heads-up!

I understand regarding the large passenger aircraft part, but what about the twin-engine medium-sized transport plane and the second-generation long-range anti-submarine patrol aircraft?

Both the Y-20 and the larger Y-20F-100 are definitely not twin-engine transport aircrafts (although they are indeed medium-sized), and certainly not the next generation super heavy airlifter that are similar in scale with the C-5s and An-124s.

(Quick question: Would the PLAAF eventually include the larger Y-20F-100s into military service as well in the future?)

Plus, I take it that the 2nd-gen long-range ASW patrol aircraft certainly isn't the KJ-500?

Do you know any further information on the two?
 
T

tonyget

Senior Member
Registered Member
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The first domestic M701J gas turbine was completed

On the morning of October 15, the completion ceremony of the first domestic M701J gas turbine was held at Dongfang Steam Turbine.

image.png


With the successful completion of the first domestic M701J gas turbine, Dongfang Steam Turbine has become the first domestic energy equipment manufacturer to master the world's most advanced H/J-class gas turbine manufacturing technology, laying a solid foundation for my country to fully grasp the world's leading gas turbine manufacturing technology.

1 leading performance

The M701J gas turbine completed this time has a gas turbine inlet temperature of over 1600°C, a combined cycle efficiency of over 64%, and a NOx emission concentration of less than 50mg/Nm3, which can be reduced by 4,000 hours per year compared with a coal-fired power plant with the same capacity. With a carbon dioxide emission of 1.6 million tons, it is the world's leading gas turbine product.

image.png


2 Leading localization rate

The M701J gas turbine completed this time is the first J-class heavy-duty gas turbine of Dongfang Steam Turbine, and its localization rate has reached 65%. The subsequent localization rate will continue to increase, which is of great strategic significance for Dongfang Steam Turbine to occupy the domestic high-end gas turbine market.

image.png


3 market leading

In the past ten years, Dongfang Steam Turbine has been far ahead in the domestic market share of large gas turbines. The accumulative operating time of J series gas turbines in the world exceeds 1.7 million hours, and the reliability exceeds 99.5%, firmly ranking the highest level in its class.

image.png
 
sunnymaxi

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
ACuriousPLAFan said:
(Quick question: Would the PLAAF eventually include the larger Y-20F-100s into military service as well in the future?)

Plus, I take it that the 2nd-gen long-range ASW patrol aircraft certainly isn't the KJ-500?

Do you know any further information on the two?
Click to expand...
first of all. sorry for late reply

Y-20F-100 is strictly for civilian purpose. will not use by military. they might develop next generation super heavy cargo aircraft. PLAAF will definitely need large cargo aircraft.

yes you are right it is not KJ-500. PLAAF are not happy with the Y-9/Y-8 turboprop engines coz of slow speed and poor fuel efficiency. this is why in near future all new variants will equipped with AEP-500 engines.

when i asked about same question from my source. in near future can we see Y-20 aircraft being convert into early warning variant or some other role.

his answer was. nope very less chance. PLAAF looking for twin engine powered aircraft. as you said above. similar comparison would either be the Boeing P-8 Poseidon or the Kawasaki P-1. less costly and easy to maintain.

so description written on WS-20 chart indicate. we might see something like P-8 Poseidon or the Kawasaki P-1 in Air force

i have said many times. WS-20 engine is in very high demand in Chinese air force. will extensively use in coming years. will expand like WS-10 family.
 
G

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I think it is highly likely they will make a C919 with all Chinese components so they can use it for government and military purposes. Sooner rather than later. As for the KC-390 like aircraft, I think it makes more sense than a quad turboprop, but who knows what the Chinese military will want.
 
M

minusone

Junior Member
Registered Member
tonyget said:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The first domestic M701J gas turbine was completed

On the morning of October 15, the completion ceremony of the first domestic M701J gas turbine was held at Dongfang Steam Turbine.

image.png


With the successful completion of the first domestic M701J gas turbine, Dongfang Steam Turbine has become the first domestic energy equipment manufacturer to master the world's most advanced H/J-class gas turbine manufacturing technology, laying a solid foundation for my country to fully grasp the world's leading gas turbine manufacturing technology.

1 leading performance

The M701J gas turbine completed this time has a gas turbine inlet temperature of over 1600°C, a combined cycle efficiency of over 64%, and a NOx emission concentration of less than 50mg/Nm3, which can be reduced by 4,000 hours per year compared with a coal-fired power plant with the same capacity. With a carbon dioxide emission of 1.6 million tons, it is the world's leading gas turbine product.

image.png


2 Leading localization rate

The M701J gas turbine completed this time is the first J-class heavy-duty gas turbine of Dongfang Steam Turbine, and its localization rate has reached 65%. The subsequent localization rate will continue to increase, which is of great strategic significance for Dongfang Steam Turbine to occupy the domestic high-end gas turbine market.

image.png


3 market leading

In the past ten years, Dongfang Steam Turbine has been far ahead in the domestic market share of large gas turbines. The accumulative operating time of J series gas turbines in the world exceeds 1.7 million hours, and the reliability exceeds 99.5%, firmly ranking the highest level in its class.

image.png
Click to expand...
The same company rolled out F-class gas turbine capable of generating 50 MW.

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phrozenflame

phrozenflame

Junior Member
Registered Member
I feel China is at a stage that in few years, they'd be pumping out all different kinds of engines like they're pumping out UAVs for the past few years.
 
sunnymaxi

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
minusone said:
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about ws-10a, ws-10b and ws-10c thrust estimation.
Click to expand...
From link -

We can estimate that the turbofan 10B military pushes 92KN up to 144KN, and the envelope is stronger than AL31F. Then the turbofan 10C after the above violent modification may have the thrust characteristics approaching the F119PW100 before the boost (military push 105KN maximum 156KN), but Life expectancy is greatly reduced..

hmmm. probably i was the first member to actually break this news, WS-10C exceed all the expectations and total thrust reached early version of WS-15. and above mentioned link basically confirmed this status.

WS-10C total thrust close to F119 engine.

China reached at certain point, where they can design/produce any type of engine. this decade is really interesting to follow.
 
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minusone

Junior Member
Registered Member
sunnymaxi said:
From link -

We can estimate that the turbofan 10B military pushes 92KN up to 144KN, and the envelope is stronger than AL31F. Then the turbofan 10C after the above violent modification may have the thrust characteristics approaching the F119PW100 before the boost (military push 105KN maximum 156KN), but Life expectancy is greatly reduced..

hmmm. probably i was the first member to actually break this news, WS-10C exceed all the expectations and total thrust reached early version of WS-15. and above mentioned link basically confirmed this status.

WS-10C total thrust close to F119 engines.

China reached at certain point, where they can design/produce any type of engine. this decade is really interesting to follow.
Click to expand...

Indeed, the most interesting part mentioned by the insider from AVIC about how it's harder to reverse engineer turbofan engine tuned and customized with fine details (software hardware integration etc) not known, than starting everything from scratch.
 
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