Chinese Engine Development

stibyssip

New Member
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This article provides a look into China's development of light aero piston engines. It concludes that China has yet to to develop a satisfactory indigenous light aero piston engine for the most demanding applications, namely for powering new generation UAVs and UCAVs. The Wing Loong and CH series drones are reportedly powered by the ROTAX914 series engine made in Austria. The closest domestic offering is the HS-133, which is not only a much less mature product, but clearly at a performance deficit to the Austrian offering.

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ROTAX914: 100HP, 1.5625hp/kg

f39e3aee9d7538b_size125_w461_h289.jpg


HS-133: 82HP, 1.025hp/kg
 

jobjed

Captain
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This article provides a look into China's development of light aero piston engines. It concludes that China has yet to to develop a satisfactory indigenous light aero piston engine for the most demanding applications, namely for powering new generation UAVs and UCAVs. The Wing Loong and CH series drones are reportedly powered by the ROTAX914 series engine made in Austria. The closest domestic offering is the HS-133, which is not only a much less mature product, but clearly at a performance deficit to the Austrian offering.

0af56b473e3a785_size80_w351_h252.jpg

ROTAX914: 100HP, 1.5625hp/kg

f39e3aee9d7538b_size125_w461_h289.jpg


HS-133: 82HP, 1.025hp/kg

Fenghuang isn't the most authoritative source on the PLA. However, assuming its claims are true, the ROTAX definitely isn't used on the latest variants of the GJ and CH series as they carry quadruple the weapons load of earlier variants. So the question is, what are the PLA using for the GJ-2 and CH-5?
 

stibyssip

New Member
Fenghuang isn't the most authoritative source on the PLA. However, assuming its claims are true, the ROTAX definitely isn't used on the latest variants of the GJ and CH series as they carry quadruple the weapons load of earlier variants. So the question is, what are the PLA using for the GJ-2 and CH-5?

Apparently CH5 is using an unconventional heavy fuel engine (HFE), other wise known as a hot bulb engine, producing 330HP.

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Quickie

Colonel
It's better to compare apple to apple.

Rotax 912 power output: 79.9 HP
Power to weight : 1.314 HP/Kg
Engine weight : 60.8 Kg

HS-133 power output : 82.0 HP
Power to weight : 1.025 HP/Kg
Engine weight : 80.0 kg

So, it's not so far off to 1.5625 HP/Kg.

I tried to search up HS-133 to verify the data but surprisingly nothing turned up.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
It's better to compare apple to apple.

Rotax 912 power output: 79.9 HP
Power to weight : 1.314 HP/Kg
Engine weight : 60.8 Kg

HS-133 power output : 82.0 HP
Power to weight : 1.025 HP/Kg
Engine weight : 80.0 kg

So, it's not so far off to 1.5625 HP/Kg.

I tried to search up HS-133 to verify the data but surprisingly nothing turned up.

Not quite.
If you are going to compare engines in detail, you'll have to look at the power band since if there is not enough in the lower RPM to obtain range.
A 31% difference in weight with only 2.6% difference in power output is not promising either.
 

superdog

Junior Member
I know when you're starving with information there's an urge to draw conclusions and went into detailed arguments based on one article and one set of extremely vague specs. Let's hold the urge and consider the following:

1. The article stibyssip quoted was not the original article, it was written by a Chinese military watcher and posted on his blog (
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). The news site (ifeng.com) copied this article and shamelessly changed its title into a sensationalist click-bait, which has quite an opposite meaning to the original title. The original author's title "谁言老干曾疏落,且看新枝再弄春" was a poetic expression that (Chinese aviation piston engines) used to be questionable but is facing a new spring in development. The modified click-bait title, on the other hand, translates to "Austria has engine monopoly on China's best UAVs, could face US embargo which leads to severe consequences". While the click bait was based on part of the article that addressed the use of Rotax as a potential concern, it was not the article's conclusion that "Austria has monopoly......", nor did it conclude that China nowadays is highly vulnerable to a potential western embargo of UAV engines.

So basically stibyssip has just posted a classic counter-example on how Chinese media is supposedly "gleefully optimistic" and will deliberately "upsell military capabilities". Reality testing right there.

2. Those closely following Chinese engine development should know that AVIC's long-term plan did not ignore smaller aircraft and their power-plants. Internal developments may be less transparent, but AVIC has acquired Cirrus, Continental Motors, and Thielert AE for quite a few years, all these acquisitions were well reported in the industry. People not familiar with them can google and see the product line of these companies. If the author is well informed, and seeing how his previous article hinted, this should be what he'll discuss next (as I just checked, indeed he does). It is still fair to assume that AVIC is not comparable with the world's best in ultralight AE engines (i.e. Rotex), but I wouldn't be too concerned about meeting domestic UAV needs in the future, at least in regards to piston engines. The lack of an embargo now on the military use of Rotex is indicative (albeit indirectly) of AVIC‘s capabilities.
 

Quickie

Colonel
Not quite.
If you are going to compare engines in detail, you'll have to look at the power band since if there is not enough in the lower RPM to obtain range.
A 31% difference in weight with only 2.6% difference in power output is not promising either.


It's only logical to compare engines of the same type, size and c.c. Generally a larger engine of a certain type and design is bound to have a better power to weight ratio than a smaller engine of the same type/design.

And how do you get 31%? The way you calculated the figure would only work in the share market.

The difference in weight is actually 24%.

As I have said before the accuracy and exact details of the HS-133 data has not been verified.
 

Engineer

Major
Ya and when there are cops around you have disincentives toward theft. When you have a direct interest in something you have more incentive to talk it up than if you don't have a direct interest in something. There is no argument here unless you are trying to argue on purpose.

Also I never talked in terms of absolutes this entire debate, only likelihood.
So there is an incentive to theft when the cops not around then. In other words, incentive goes both ways. There is incentive to do something, and there is incentive not to do it. You try to highlight one while conveniently ignoring the other. That's called
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, another logical fallacy.

You claimed that China has an incentive to over report its military capability, but China has an explicit interest in under reporting its military capability as pointed out in post #4056. Your argument simply does not work, because you are unable to show one is more likely than another. Your argument is also irrelevant, because it is not about the state of WS-10.

Many people arguing against me, like yourself, have demanded I 'prove' a certain claim, whereas I never claimed the ability to prove anything. I only ask you to use your brains and realize what a reasonable inference looks like. That's it.
You have not provide any logical inference in your argument, perhaps because you have none to begin with. It is not the responsibility of others to do your homework for you.

You are the one making a fallacious argument here because you are acting like I've been arguing a specific claim about the WS10 while my whole argument has simply been about why Blackstone's skepticism is not entirely unjustified and didn't deserve the amount of antagonism he got. And what I've received has been small bit of rational debate and a whole heaping pile of straw men + ill conceived accusations of fallacy.

Since it doesn't seem like you understand how to assess fallacy, nor are you capable of reasonably considering views that differ from your own, I see no point in arguing with you on this any longer.
Certain poster's skepticism is not reasonable because it is based on ad hominem. He attacked an entity rather than the points under contention. It's that simple. Your perception on whether the ad hominem is justifiable is irrelevant, because it is still an ad hominem.

Your defense of his post means you agree with his conclusion. It is then reasonable for others to ask you for proofs to support his conclusion, specifically on how the report is inaccurate. Others have also reasonably provided their views on why the report is accurate. Instead of addressing the points, you made more rants about media bias, which got you the antagonism you deserved.
 
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