Chinese Engine Development

stibyssip

New Member
If the statistical majority of suitable WS-10 equippable planes are equipped with them, that for all intents and purposes is sufficient grounds for classifying it as a primary engine. The same would hold true if the F100 engine equipped the majority of USAF planes that could use them too.
Agreed

I'm not interested in the current discussions/arguments between you guys, but just want to point out that sina.com is a horrible source for Chinese military. They should not be the source/base for any serious discussion at all. These two articles are just BAD. It also doesn't matter who they quote in their reports, it almost always be untrue, mistaken, out-of-the-context or all the above.

Just my 2 cents.
I don't take Sina seriously for their military reporting. These are just two popular articles that make some specific claims. Without more credible info, I think we can infer that the size of difference between various claims is proportional to the degree of uncertainty there is in the public sphere about developments.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
I never made the assertion that the Chinese government hides the developmental status of WS10 because I know that no government will be entirely transparent with status of high priority strategic projects. My "assertion" was listing 3 ways in which the Chinese government HAS INCENTIVE to promote a biased stance on WS10 and I stand by them. I explained in the best logic I could why the report you cited did not refute my claim, and you saying it does will not make it so.

Let's try to understand exactly what we are arguing against instead of arguing for the sake of winning arguments.

By status, I don't mean the development status as part of the cycle of the engine development and production. I was referring to your assertion here that the Chinese government is engaging in:
Producing a perception that Chinese military industry is more advanced than it is, especially in the field of turbofan engine development where it has faced major hurdles, helps to:

1. Improve national pride, cohesion, confidence, and morale among the domestic audience.
2. Raise the deterrence value of the Chinese military as perceived by potential rivals.
3. Improve perception of Chinese military hardware among potential export customers.

thereby giving a false perception of the real image of the quality of the engine.

My question to you now is how could the general's criticism help in the three points you postulated?
 

stibyssip

New Member
My question to you now is how could the general's criticism help in the three points you postulated?
His comments are critical, not laudatory; thus obviously they don't work to the same incentives behind positive state media bias. I shouldn't have to explain this.

The article you cite simply shows that Chinese state-affiliated sources are also capable of being critical. I know this, I never denied this, and you are wasting your words if this is what you are arguing against. However, that does not refute the my claim that the Chinese state media has the incentive to be biased in regard to certain topics like strategic technologies, which no one here has directly negated because it's so blindingly obvious.

Now I think we should try and move toward more fruitful areas of discussion.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
So you are saying that if the government's comments are laudatory of the engine's capability, it is biased; if it is critical, it is not.

Then you are biased. Must the government be only critical?

I think for the benefit of us, can you provide specific examples of state bias of any strategic technologies?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
His comments are critical, not laudatory; thus obviously they don't work to the same incentives behind positive state media bias. I shouldn't have to explain this.

The article you cite simply shows that Chinese state-affiliated sources are also capable of being critical. I know this, I never denied this, and you are wasting your words if this is what you are arguing against. However, that does not refute the my claim that the Chinese state media has the incentive to be biased in regard to certain topics like strategic technologies, which no one here has directly negated because it's so blindingly obvious.

Now I think we should try and move toward more fruitful areas of discussion.

I think we need to actually elaborate on this issue a bit more, because while I don't want to get into the nitty gritty of analyzing the articles about WS-10 (I think it's a redundant path to take, personally), I do think it's important to talk about just the way in which Chinese state media reports on developments and the purposes of the way they report it.

Based on my own experience, I think Chinese state media generally reports very little for certain strategic technologies when they are in development, and if they do report on them they are generally reported in a vague way, and will however report on specific major milestones or specific major issues or failures in a brief and succinct way.

However when those strategic projects or technologies have been deployed in a number of years afterwards, state media will often have more detailed coverage (CCTV documenatires) that will often talk with many of the people involved in developing specific technologies, and that coverage is often quite honest and from my viewing of them tends to acknowledge difficulties during development as well.

So I don't think the word "biased" is correct, and I also do not agree with your original three points especially 1. and 2., because for virtually all experience PLA watchers it is known that China always conceals the latest and greatest developments they have in the works with significant operational security and only reveal strategically sensitive projects once they are either in late stages of development or even once they are deployed for a while.

It would be more accurate to divide Chinese state media reporting of military developments into two categories:

A: reporting prior to/during development, which almost always tends to be sparse if not nonexistent, and only reports on certain milestones or failures in a very brief and succinct way, and even then those are rare and far between due to generally high levels of Chinese opsec
B: reporting well after a project or capability has been deployed, which often tends to be quite comprehensive

(and there is of course a third category, C: where a capability is simply never reported on in the first place because of its highly strategic and sensitive nature in operation)


Both A, B (and C I suppose) together are all meant to provide a level of high opsec to prevent potential foes from gaining an accurate picture of China's military development, especially for projects when they are still in the development stage.
There are various unofficial means via internet boards which the military allows, to occasionally "leak" new developments and projects for the sake of promoting enthusiasm for military developments of course, but that is generally not the role of Chinese state media. Instead, Chinese state media will usually recycle those "unofficial" leaks and sometimes even recycle foreign media reports on new weapons instead.

It is rare for Chinese state/official military media to directly comment on the specific status of a new weapon in development, and even then it is sometimes due to some sort of specific controversial comment that has gained traction such as in overseas media or in social media that they sometimes feel compelled to clarify or respond to, and when it occurs it generally reveals very little about the explicit capability of the relevant system.


So I strongly disagree with your assertion that Chinese state media reports on its military industry is meant to create a sense that it is more advanced than it is.
Rather, Chinese state media generally only reports on the leading edge of their military industry technology in a very restrained way and the latest military developments are done in a vague way, and usually those are not even reported at all until well after those projects and systems have entered service. So if anything, Chinese state media deliberately avoids reporting on the advancement of China's military industry in virtually all situations, to create ambiguity/underestimation about how advanced their industry actually is, by withholding information about developments that are occurring which would otherwise be openly reported or acknowledged by in media of other foreign nations.


What you describe about seeking to create a sense that the military industry is more advanced than it really is, is more consistent with the modus operandi of the way North Korea or Iran or even Russia portrays their military developments in their state media instead.
 

stibyssip

New Member
So you are saying that if the government's comments are laudatory of the engine's capability, it is biased; if it is critical, it is not.

Then you are biased. Must the government be only critical?

I'm saying that the state media has an incentive to be biased. no more no less. Stop trying to put words in my mouth and pull arguments out of thin air.

I think for the benefit of us, can you provide specific examples of state bias of any strategic technologies?
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

for example, is highly vague, and only suggests good things are happening
 
Last edited:

stibyssip

New Member
Based on my own experience, I think Chinese state media generally reports very little for certain strategic technologies when they are in development, and if they do report on them they are generally reported in a vague way, and will however report on specific major milestones or specific major issues or failures in a brief and succinct way.
I notice the same
However when those strategic projects or technologies have been deployed in a number of years afterwards, state media will often have more detailed coverage (CCTV documenatires) that will often talk with many of the people involved in developing specific technologies, and that coverage is often quite honest and from my viewing of them tends to acknowledge difficulties during development as well.

So I don't think the word "biased" is correct, and I also do not agree with your original three points especially 1. and 2., because for virtually all experience PLA watchers it is known that China always conceals the latest and greatest developments they have in the works with significant operational security and only reveal strategically sensitive projects once they are either in late stages of development or even once they are deployed for a while.
Like all countries, China strategic capabilities are guarded by secrecy. Its state media generally doesn't make outsized claims like the North Koreans. But my points were less a description of what the Chinese do, they were meant to show how positive bias on strategic/military reporting helps state interests. On a general level I don't see how they are wrong.

For example, if you observe that the Chinese only reveal sensitive projects when they are relatively mature, it's a reasonable inference that they do so because they don't want to damage the perception of China's military as a credible deterrent by making outsized claims. Clearly, creating the perception of China's military as a strong deterrent is an incentive for them.
...So I strongly disagree with your assertion that Chinese state media reports on its military industry is meant to create a sense that it is more advanced than it is.
Rather, Chinese state media generally only reports on the leading edge of their military industry technology in a very restrained way and the latest military developments are done in a vague way, and usually those are not even reported at all until well after those projects and systems have entered service. So if anything, Chinese state media deliberately avoids reporting on the advancement of China's military industry in virtually all situations, to create ambiguity/underestimation about how advanced their industry actually is, by withholding information about developments that are occurring which would otherwise be openly reported or acknowledged by in media of other foreign nations.


What you describe about seeking to create a sense that the military industry is more advanced than it really is, is more consistent with the modus operandi of the way North Korea or Iran or even Russia portrays their military developments in their state media instead.
I agree that Chinese state media is more vague and restrained in how they talk about military/strategic developments than many other countries. But I hold firm to the claim that the incentives are there for the state to talk up military capabilities and effectiveness, and I also hold firm to the claim that the state media has acted on these particular incentives in their content. If we watch those brief snippets from CCTV that they make so many of, we notice that out of 100 reports, most are about some new technology, method, or idea being implemented to great success. Maybe 5 out of 100 will touch on some inadequacies, but then quickly suggest that these inadequacies are being addressed sufficiently.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
I'm saying that the state media has an incentive to be biased. no more no less. Stop trying to put words in my mouth and pull arguments out of thin air.

Your argument in #4073, in your own words:
His comments are critical, not laudatory; thus obviously they don't work to the same incentives behind positive state media bias.

Obviously, his comments do not work for your argument that the state media is biased and you are not happy about my example. Only if his comments are laudatory then you would hold them up and say, "I told you so"?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

for example, is highly vague, and only suggests good things are happening

Again, you are not satisfied that the interviewee sounds optimistic. If good things are happening, you are not satisfied. But how does being suggesting "good things are happening" be biased? Must every interview touch on the engine's failures? Is the subject of the interview about the history of the engine?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I notice the same

Like all countries, China strategic capabilities are guarded by secrecy. Its state media generally doesn't make outsized claims like the North Koreans. But my points were less a description of what the Chinese do, they were meant to show how positive bias on strategic/military reporting helps state interests. On a general level I don't see how they are wrong.

I think your original point is incorrect because what you described does not happen in the way you described it.

I'll go into more detail about this below.



For example, if you observe that the Chinese only reveal sensitive projects when they are relatively mature, it's a reasonable inference that they do so because they don't want to damage the perception of China's military as a credible deterrent by making outsized claims. Clearly, creating the perception of China's military as a strong deterrent is an incentive for them.

I mostly disagree with this.

One could very well make a strong and sensible argument that if China truly were interested in doign what you described ("producing a perception that Chinese military industry is more advanced than it is"), then China would be incentivized to exaggerate their military capabilites and do early reveals of new weapons in development in stages similar to what western military forces.

Instead, big ticket projects like fighters, destroyers, carriers, new missiles, radars etc, are virtually almost never officially reported on during their development period by state media in any sort of organic sense, but instead only convyed in a speculative sense by "non-official" experts at most where they give the impression that their words are as speculative as anyone else's.

One only needs to look at how open and brazen the procurement and development of new capabilities in western military forces are to see how utterly careful, subdued and controlled China is in releasing hard information about their own capabilities.
E.g.: the development milestones of the likes of F-22, F-35 were followed step by step by media and with USAF press releases virtually from the inception of announcing the winner of ATF and JSF. Contrast that to J-20, where the Air Force has only really officially declassified the J-20 this year at Zhuhai, despite the aircraft making its first flight five years ago and the programme beginning years ago before that.

One can use similar comparisons for basically every equivalent weapons system between China and the US and how closed and restrained China is vs how open the US is. Carriers, SSNs, SSBNs, fighters, bombers, destroyers, radars, missiles... virtually everything.

In my view, the goal of all of this, is to create a sense of false security and cause potential foes to severely underestimate not only the level of advancement of China's military industrial complex as a whole, but also the level of capabilities they are capable of deploying.



I agree that Chinese state media is more vague and restrained in how they talk about military/strategic developments than many other countries. But I hold firm to the claim that the incentives are there for the state to talk up military capabilities and effectiveness, and I also hold firm to the claim that the state media has acted on these particular incentives in their content. If we watch those brief snippets from CCTV that they make so many of, we notice that out of 100 reports, most are about some new technology, method, or idea being implemented to great success. Maybe 5 out of 100 will touch on some inadequacies, but then quickly suggest that these inadequacies are being addressed sufficiently.

I do agree that Chinese state media generally tends to report on some military news in the context of "developments/progress" whether it's in a new type of training or perhaps even a segment on a new kind of equipment being inducted.

However I do not perceive the effect of this sort of overall portrayal to be one of trying to create a "perception that Chinese military industry is more advanced than it is" nor even trying to create a perception that the Chinese military's capability is more advanced than it is.

Instead, I see those portrayals more for domestic consumption with the purpose of effectively being a way of conveying that they are continuing to seek and improve, train and develop their military capabilities but all while revealing very little about the details of how they are going about that improvement so as to preserve operational security against potential foes, and they also tend to disclose very little about the actual effectiveness of their capabilities either.
What it creates is not a perception of having high levels of capability, but rather a perception that they are continuously trying to strive for improvement of capability.

Displaying that one "has" high levels of capability would be to show off the highest end capabilities that they have by revealing sufficient amounts of information about new capabilities or capabilities under development to create a sense of deterrence. Things like reporting on J-20 testing development, reporting on rough capabilities of new AEW&C and ASW MPA and EW/ECM aircraft, reporting the rough capability of sensors suite and weapons suite of new fighters or destroyers or ships, etc. But instead, these things are virtually never given to us, or even acknowledged during the development process by any form of official state media or official military media.
OTOH, I believe Chinese state/military media is displaying that they are "striving" for improvement of capability. That allows them to simply show off far less strategic, less sensitive and arguably less important assets and training and capabilities -- whether it's artillery exercises or simple naval exercises or vague depictions of aerial exercises -- and the amount of useful information that is revealed by this is far more limited. The effect of this kind of portrayal does not effect the perception of their military capabilities very much in most circumstances, but instead merely conveys that the military's "character" of determination to continue and improve and develop.

In a way, what I'm describing is still a form of PR or propaganda, but I see their portrayal as one of the military's spirit/character to improve and develop, which is vastly different to what you are describing which is that they are trying to exaggerate their capabilities or industry to a certain level of effectiveness or advancement.
This difference is small, but not trivial at all IMO.
 

stibyssip

New Member
Obviously, his comments do not work for your argument that the state media is biased and you are not happy about my example. Only if his comments are laudatory then you would hold them up and say, "I told you so"?

I think this whole time you have misunderstood what I was trying to argue. This is the last time I will say this: Your example show that state-affiliated media can be critical, yes, but I never argued that it couldn't be. One example of a state-affiliated source being critical is not evidence against my claim that state media has the incentivize to produce more laudatory reports. You are making a logical leap here. Please think about it some more if you care to but I am simply not interested in debating this particular point any longer.
Again, you are not satisfied that the interviewee sounds optimistic. If good things are happening, you are not satisfied. But how does being suggesting "good things are happening" be biased? Must every interview touch on the engine's failures? Is the subject of the interview about the history of the engine?
Please do not paint my argument as optimism=bias. This is a gross reduction of what I am trying to communicate. It might make it easier for you to argue with me, but it doesn't make the discussion a very good one.

If we assume that the audience already knows about the history of WS10, then that interview is fine. If we assume that the audience is not familiar with WS10, then it makes sense to give a brief history of the engine and its protracted development. In fact, that would make the cited breakthroughs seem more meaningful. For example, the Sina.com articles I posted before also cited breakthroughs, but because the writers knew they were writing for the general public, they also mentioned the troubled developmental process because that is relevant background for a general audience if your goal as a journalist is to write a well-rounded and informative piece.

If a report (not an inside report but a media report to the public) cites only positive developments in a project which had experienced a significant amount of difficulties. They are omitting relevant information about the project and we can conclude the report probably contains bias.
 
Top