Chinese Engine Development

Hyperwarp

Hyperwarp

Captain
jobjed said:
@tphuang, could you provide your opinion on the reliability of gongke101 on CJDBY regarding Chinese engine development? He's been making a few claims recently and they're pretty significant if true. These include:

1. The program to locally produce the AI-222-25
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. Probably will be replaced by a program to locally produce the AI-222-25F, which is the afterburning version. The aborted 222-25 copy is the WS-17 (above link, post 19) but the renewed 25F-copy project will
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(post 180).

2. The Taishan program
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, to be replaced by its non-afterburning version, currently without a code name but with a possible
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(post 83). Confusingly, the Taishan is apparently the WS-13 but he says the
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(post 45). Did 624th Institute develop the WS-13E without waiting for the original WS-13 to become ready and has now decided to drop the original WS-13 completely?

3. The WS-13E should have its design finalised in 2021 if all goes well (above link, post 53). That seems a little late to me considering it's a glorified RD-93. They might as well drop the whole WS-13 series and spend the resources to develop an EJ200-class engine.

4. Back in 2004/5, the plan was to have the WS-15 finalise its design by 2020, or 2018 if everything proceeds smoother than expected (above link, post 56). Not sure if the plan has changed since.

5. 606th and 624th both have a F119-class engine under development, 624th with the WS-15 and 606th with a design
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(post 57).

How much of this do you think is credible? He says he's going to begin work at GuiFei soon.


Regarding the Taihang family, someone from CJDBY went to ask an official at the engine booth at Zhuhai and got confirmation that the
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, which translates to 137kN. The official also indicated that a 14.5 tonne thrust version is under development.
Click to expand...

That sounds consistent with what we have heard, especially on the WS-15. The estimate was at least 10-years after the high-altitude core testing. Core testing was comleted late 2008. So the time frame of 2018 - 2020 if all goes well is spot on. They key is off-course the "if all goes well" part.

If the WS-10B has reached 137kN (14,000 kgf) then it has actually surpassed the max thrust of the AL-31FN Series 3 which is at 134kN (13,700 kgf). If the PLAAF is satisfied with the reliability and overall performance of the WS-10B then we can expect the J-10C to move to the WS-10B fairly quickly.
 
Deino

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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Another piece of information I got today concerning the WS-10 ... so in consequence the was or is some sort of family:
  • at first the plain and simple original WS-10 with the gear-box mounted on top, which was tested in the J-11A (sometimes designated J-11WS-testbed). This later became operational still as the WS-10 and was/is used operationally on the J-11B/BS, J-16 ....
  • A version of this engine was also tested as the WS-10A on the J-10A 1004 with the modified gearbox on the bottom.
  • the second improved version is the WS-10B; but now in two different versions again with the gearbox on top as the WS-10B1 for the Flankers and as the WS-10B2 with the gear box on the bottom for the J-10B (1-54 & 1-55)
  • the now rumoured improved Performance Engine (IPE) version of the WS-10 - alias WS-10IPE or WS-10G - will most likely again build in two separate versions.
Deino
 
T

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Deino, what is the source behind those claims? If it is a forum member, what is their name and reputation?
 
T

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Deino said:
Another piece of information I got today concerning the WS-10 ... so in consequence the was or is some sort of family:
  • at first the plain and simple original WS-10 with the gear-box mounted on top, which was tested in the J-11A (sometimes designated J-11WS-testbed). This later became operational still as the WS-10 and was/is used operationally on the J-11B/BS, J-16 ....
  • A version of this engine was also tested as the WS-10A on the J-10A 1004 with the modified gearbox on the bottom.
  • the second improved version is the WS-10B; but now in two different versions again with the gearbox on top as the WS-10B1 for the Flankers and as the WS-10B2 with the gear box on the bottom for the J-10B (1-54 & 1-55)
  • the now rumoured improved Performance Engine (IPE) version of the WS-10 - alias WS-10IPE or WS-10G - will most likely again build in two separate versions.
Deino
Click to expand...
I think this is the WS-10IPE or WS-10G.

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An 2013 post regarding an "Improved Performance Engine" based on matured Engine with a 12% improvement of thrust (not saying dry or with AB).
The post was sourced from
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The source was a conference report dated 2013-5-25.

The project has, at the time of the conference, finished preliminary research, about to begin building Engineering Demonstrator.

The paper literally used words "性能改进型" which is "Performance Improved Variant".
 
S

schenkus

Junior Member
Registered Member
jobjed said:
2. The Taishan program
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, to be replaced by its non-afterburning version, currently without a code name but with a possible
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(post 83). Confusingly, the Taishan is apparently the WS-13 but he says the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(post 45). Did 624th Institute develop the WS-13E without waiting for the original WS-13 to become ready and has now decided to drop the original WS-13 completely?

3. The WS-13E should have its design finalised in 2021 if all goes well (above link, post 53). That seems a little late to me considering it's a glorified RD-93. They might as well drop the whole WS-13 series and spend the resources to develop an EJ200-class engine.
Click to expand...

A question about WS-13/WS-13E: assuming that the PLAAF won't introduce the FC-31, is there some other domestic project that needs an engine of this size ?

I guess that producing a relatively small number of these engines to export some JF-17 would not be economical.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
schenkus said:
A question about WS-13/WS-13E: assuming that the PLAAF won't introduce the FC-31, is there some other domestic project that needs an engine of this size ?

I guess that producing a relatively small number of these engines to export some JF-17 would not be economical.
Click to expand...

That is the wrong way of looking into Turbofan industry. Designing and testing Turbofan take a long time . So it is better to perfect and continue improve the engine. The application will come It could be long range and heavy UAV(HALE) not necessary a fighter jet or could be something else
 
T

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
jobjed said:
2. The Taishan program
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, to be replaced by its non-afterburning version, currently without a code name but with a possible
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(post 83). Confusingly, the Taishan is apparently the WS-13 but he says the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(post 45). Did 624th Institute develop the WS-13E without waiting for the original WS-13 to become ready and has now decided to drop the original WS-13 completely?

Regarding the Taihang family, someone from CJDBY went to ask an official at the engine booth at Zhuhai and got confirmation that the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, which translates to 137kN. The official also indicated that a 14.5 tonne thrust version is under development.
Click to expand...
IMO, if Taishan continues in a non-afterburning version, it can not be said to be aborted. Same engine, different variants.

That answer about "WS-10B being 14kgf" is confusing. Depending on whether 14kgf includes AB or not, the "IPE" version may be WS-10B.:confused:
 
tphuang

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
jobjed said:
@tphuang, could you provide your opinion on the reliability of gongke101 on CJDBY regarding Chinese engine development? He's been making a few claims recently and they're pretty significant if true. These include:

1. The program to locally produce the AI-222-25
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Probably will be replaced by a program to locally produce the AI-222-25F, which is the afterburning version. The aborted 222-25 copy is the WS-17 (above link, post 19) but the renewed 25F-copy project will
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(post 180).

2. The Taishan program
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, to be replaced by its non-afterburning version, currently without a code name but with a possible
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(post 83). Confusingly, the Taishan is apparently the WS-13 but he says the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(post 45). Did 624th Institute develop the WS-13E without waiting for the original WS-13 to become ready and has now decided to drop the original WS-13 completely?

3. The WS-13E should have its design finalised in 2021 if all goes well (above link, post 53). That seems a little late to me considering it's a glorified RD-93. They might as well drop the whole WS-13 series and spend the resources to develop an EJ200-class engine.

4. Back in 2004/5, the plan was to have the WS-15 finalise its design by 2020, or 2018 if everything proceeds smoother than expected (above link, post 56). Not sure if the plan has changed since.

5. 606th and 624th both have a F119-class engine under development, 624th with the WS-15 and 606th with a design
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(post 57).

How much of this do you think is credible? He says he's going to begin work at GuiFei soon.


Regarding the Taihang family, someone from CJDBY went to ask an official at the engine booth at Zhuhai and got confirmation that the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, which translates to 137kN. The official also indicated that a 14.5 tonne thrust version is under development.
Click to expand...

I have not read any of his stuff before, but nothing in this seems to be out of character with what we've heard. Sorry to correct myself, the improved WS-10 (WS-10B or WS-10G0 has 14 t thrust (rather than 140 kn).

Deino, I'm not sure about WS-10B and WS-10G being different. Maybe they are, I don't know.
 
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