Chinese Engine Development

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
What you think blade fracturing means? Do you think an engine with blades coming apart will not stall?

Engine fracture is misnomer it should be called engine hair crack. Engine hair crack happened all the time Airbus A 400 engine suffer various crack yet they still flying !
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Recently MRT of Singapore find hair crack in their subway manufactured in China Yet they too still running
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So does F35 engine
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A400M: Airbus Confirms That 48 Engines Have Cracks; GE, maker of reduction gear, confirms that all clockwise-turning engines are affected
(Source: Andalucia Informacion; published May 23, 2016)
(Published in Spanish; unofficial translation by Defense-Aerospace.com)
SEVILLE, Spain --- Airbus has confirmed the most negative scenario regarding faults in the reduction gear of the engine of the A400M military transport aircraft, as cracks have been found in all engines whose propellers rotate clockwise.

In extreme cases, these cracks in the engine’s Propeller Gear Box (PGB) could shed flakes of metal which then that pass into the oil cooling circuit. This is what happened earlier this year to a newly-delivered UK aircraft. (The PGB is made by the Italian company Avio, a subsidiary of US giant General Electric.)

That means that two of the four engines fitted to each of the 24 aircraft delivered to date – or a total 48 engines -- must now be repaired, a much bigger task than initially anticipated.

(An Airbus spokesman confirmed May 24 that “all right-hand rotating units are affected by the issue.” The European Airworthiness Directive issued because of this fault mandates “replacement if evidence of damage is found, or else return to service and continuing repetitive inspections,” the spokesman confirmed.

(In other words, as Airbus has delivered 24 aircraft to date, it must now repair their 48 right-hand rotating engines (two per aircraft) and well as modify and fit the 80 engines that power the 20 aircraft it has promised to deliver this year—Ed.)


"We are in daily conversations with our suppliers and customers to solve this problem in a standardized manner. We work with all our capabilities to meet the needs of our customers," said Airbus sources. Eight military customers have ordered 174 aircraft and, in addition to the 24 already delivered, this year Airbus expected to deliver 20 more, although so far only three have been received by customers. Spain should receive its first A400M this year, and that plane is a priority for Airbus, company sources say.

The next step is how to fix these problems on the A400M Final Assembly Line located in Seville, Spain. The problem is twofold: first, Europrop must repair the 48 engines that have already failed, and which are installed on the 24 aircraft already in operation. Secondly, it must at the same time produce modified engines for new aircraft that are being assembled.
 
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SamuraiBlue

Captain
Hairline cracks has two possibilities.
One being material failure in which there was a defect in material
Second is unusual vibration beyond tolerance of the material or both in which a steady vibration and the material's resonance harmonic matches and amplifies the vibration beyond material tolerance.
For the A400 it was probably the second or second dash since if it was defect in material then the problem would have appeared in random in both clock wise spinning engines as well as counter clock wise ones.

Having said that engine failure is a common problem in which there are two camps.
Up until recently the US navy for example would insist on two engine powered fighters to ensure safety of their pilots. This isn't just about internal failure like something broke in the engine but also external factor like a bullet fracturing a pipe.
Nowadays it looks as if the Navy is also adopting some one engine fighters like the F-35 which suggests that they are more confident with the quality of the engine and accepted the reality that whether one engine or two, if a missile hits the plane there is not much of a difference.
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
Sofar there are reported 8 or 9 accidents involving AL 31F. Even thought the chinese version is updated one. And you say they have decent track record ?. The Indian version has atrocious maintenance record. Engine component failure attributed to the loss of 5 Su30MKI. The idea of double engine is not prone to accident is not true
I guess the nay sayer can never get rid of their superiority feeling.

They have ordered roughly 800-900 AL31F engine. And converting existing fleet to WS 10B is just too much trouble.So they must used existing engine stock before converting to WS10B. We have seen J-10B&C with WS-10B . And so far we have not heard any new order for AL31 F engine. I retract my word when put new order for AL31 F

Huh? How did the Indian Su-30MKI or Indian AF come into this? I am speaking of the PLAAF/PLAN and I specifically said AL-31FN (Salut) which powers the J-10. The J-10 are not falling out of the sky. There are 300 to 400 J-10 of different variants flying (I lost count). How many were lost due to engine failure? The latest most advanced J-10C has a AL-31FN Series 3 engine. There are only 1 or 2 J-10 prototypes flying with WS-10B and only 2 J-10B (#0154 & #0155) in-service with WS-10B. There are no J-10C with WS-10B.

So the key test for the WS-10B is when it starts powering the J-10 series. If the PLAAF starts ordering J-10 with WS-10B in large quantities then, yes it is truly proven. But, until then..... we will just have to wait.

PS: ever since the J-11B issue, Russia stopped selling AL-31F to China with the exception of spares already paid for existing flankers (Su-27/30, J-11/11A). Even the AL-31 in the J-15 were scavenged from other planes. Only new AL-31 variants sold are by Salut for J-10 and J-20. Only when the Su-35 enters service will this change with introduction of the 117S by Saturn.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
I don't know where you get the idea that engine blade fracture means hairline cracks. Please see pictures to understand what I mean:

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From what I see it, the pictures were mostly cascade failure in which could have started from a single hairline fracture that eventually lost structural integrity, broke off and knocked off more blades with it.
 

superdog

Junior Member
From what I see it, the pictures were mostly cascade failure in which could have started from a single hairline fracture that eventually lost structural integrity, broke off and knocked off more blades with it.
Yes it could be. My point is that I'm talking about blades breaking off, not that hairline cracks are detected. Otherwise I wouldn't have described it as "most serious".
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Any news on Su-35 deliveries to China with the new engines?

Yes ... following my information the first four are already under construction to make their maiden flights in late 2016 - more likely early 2017 - ...

Deino
 
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